How does our mental health impact our environment? How does our environment impact our mental health? Your host Leslie is joined by Shira Gill, a globally recognized home organizing expert and best-selling author of 'Minimalista' and 'Organized Living’ to discuss these questions and more.
How does our mental health impact our environment? How does our environment impact our mental health? Your host Leslie is joined by Shira Gill, a globally recognized home organizing expert and best-selling author of 'Minimalista' and 'Organized Living’ to discuss these questions and more, focusing on the profound impact of minimalism and organization on mental health.
Shira shares her personal journey from a childhood seeking control amidst chaos to becoming an advocate for intentional living through decluttering. She emphasizes that organization is about more than just arranging physical spaces; it's a tool for managing mental health, fostering personal transformation, and navigating loss in a controlled, positive manner.
Through her practice, Shira has witnessed remarkable changes in her clients' lives, affirming that simplifying one's environment can lead to greater happiness and fulfillment. Shira also touches on the cultural aspects of clutter and consumerism, especially focusing on how these challenges manifest differently across the globe. The conversation concludes with actionable advice for taking small steps towards organized living, emphasizing the beneficial impacts of minimalism on both mental well-being and personal growth.
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Show credits:
Leslie: Welcome to The Nature of Nurture with Dr. Leslie Carr, a podcast for your mental health. I'm your host, Leslie. If you're watching this podcast right now, you can find the audio version in any podcast app. And if you're listening, you can also watch this episode on YouTube at The Nature of Nurture. You can find that link in the show notes.
Today, I'm here with Shira Gill. Shira is a best selling author, a speaker, and a globally recognized home organizing expert. She's inspired thousands of people to clear clutter from their homes and their lives. And she's developed a process and toolkit that applies to anyone, regardless of budget, space, or lifestyle.
Shira is the author of 'Minimalista' and 'Organized Living', and she's been featured in over a hundred print and media outlets, including Good Morning America, Vogue, Dwell, Better Homes and Gardens, Architectural Digest, Forbes, Goop, InStyle, Real Simple, and the New York Times. The list goes on. She has a beautiful way of talking about how our mental health impacts our environments, and vice versa.
And I'm lucky to be able to call her a friend. Welcome, Shira Gill. Hi. How are you doing today? I'm good. So happy to be here with you. I am so happy to have you here with me. I cannot even tell you. So just to kind of back up a little bit and let our listeners, viewers in a little bit on your history and how you created this incredible career for yourself.
Will you rewind the clock a little bit? Like how did you become interested in organization and minimalism?
Shira: Sure. Yeah, it started very, very young. Um, my parents split up when I was three. I was an only child raised in the San Francisco Bay area. Um, and their marriage. was really Rocky from day one. And they ended up having kind of a brutal divorce when I was eight.
And, um, and through that my dad also was suffering from debilitating bouts of depression. And so I think as a little girl, I just discovered Like, any form of control I could find that felt good. And, um, I just remember as young as, like, three, four, five years old, arranging things in my room, like, making my bed in a way that I liked, arranging my little guys and stuffed animals, and, um, And just feeling like this sense of power in being able to claim control where I could find it.
Because everything else in my life as a little kid felt kind of wildly out of control. So I don't think I even thought about it as much. minimalism. I just always knew my environment was very important to me. I was very sensitive to it. Um, and luckily both of my parents encouraged me to spend time in my room and to kind of curate it the way that I wanted to.
Um, So I did feel like it became this really positive, healthy, creative outlet.
Leslie: Yeah. Thank you for that. There are a couple of things that I just want to, um, want to kind of point out and a couple things I want to say. So first things first, one thing that's very funny, cause you know, obviously you and I know each other and I know your backstory and I know the role that your parents divorced played in it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I actually didn't realize that we had something very specific and common around our timelines because my parents also separated when I was three years old, and their divorce was finalized when I was eight. Really? And funnily enough, I am also, as you know, just sort of like an organization junkie.
Yeah. And I don't think of it as having the same original purpose. origin story is what you just shared. You know, I was also just like raised by really fastidious people. So I always think of it as like that level of life training. Um, but it was really interesting to hear you say the timeline right now and to realize that my, my own timeline is like, you're really similar.
Shira: That's wild. I've never met anyone who has that exact same timeline and so interesting.
Leslie: Yeah. So wild. Right. Yeah. Also an only child. Like I had a, step sibling, but like, I don't, I'm, I was my parents only child. Yes, me too. It wasn't until, you know, later that a step sibling came along, but isn't that so interesting?
Shira: It's so wild. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always say I was a control enthusiast. Yes. I love how you say that. Yes. Um, because it sounds a lot nicer than other things like freak. Um, but I think, you know, even in my own family, like my husband and my kids poke fun a lot. And I think, um, I only became aware more as an adult, like, where this all came from.
Yeah. It was kind of in retrospect. So I wasn't wildly aware of it.
Leslie: Yeah. I really appreciate that. And something that I also just want to point out for our listeners is that a lot of what I just really love about your origin story and how it brings us to where we are. R is that I just think that like, this is what life is all about.
And as far as I'm concerned, what this podcast is all about, which is just to say that like, we all have an origin story. And I think being able to kind of connect the dots is to me, it's always like super interesting.
Shira: It is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I didn't even know that I had a rough childhood until a therapist told me when I was like 30 years old, I was like, no, it was really great.
Yeah. Yeah. It's that self awareness. Sometimes comes later.
Leslie: It is. It's funny how that can work. Absolutely. So, you know, one of the things that I just love about sort of what you do and how you write about it and how you talk about it is that, and I, obviously this is completely in keeping with where we're starting right now, is just this idea that, It's not, it's, this is not a superficial thing that we're talking about.
Like, I think that a lot of people think about, like, home organization or minimalism as not, like, the most depth oriented thing in the world. But I actually pulled a quote or two out of your books, and I apologize, I don't remember which book.
Shira: Hopefully you'll know.
Leslie: Yeah, maybe you'll be able to tell me. But there are two separate quotes that I think could be a really interesting place to start here.
And one, which might not require much commentary, because we're already in this space, but you can tell me if you want to comment on this, is the idea that you like to create order and beauty in a world that's fractured and painful.
Shira: Hmm.
Leslie: Yeah. Do you want to respond to that or add any color?
Shira: Yeah, I mean, so that's from my newest book, Organized Living.
And I think in writing a book about organization and the most organized people in the world. Like the number one myth I wanted to dispel was that this is a profession about people who like pretty boxes and baskets and rainbow order. Um, and I think what I found in interviewing the 25 people in this book, and also through my own history and story, is it really is a helping profession and a profession much like therapy or coaching that's rooted in the desire to help create transformation.
Um, Yeah. And so I wanted to just kind of like hit that straight away. That's from the introduction with like people when they find out what I do, that I work with people and help organize their homes. The first question is always like, so you must love the container store. And I'm like, what? No. You know, like, yes, it has a place.
Right. But, um, but no, I really love human evolution and psychology and transformation. And I think, um, For me, finding a way of using my home and my environment to create beauty and order and sometimes even like joy and flow. It was something that I felt like, well, surely this can't be just me. I want to help other people.
And what I've seen, you know, I've been in this field for about 15 years is, you know, often people don't even realize what they're missing until they have it. Um, And so I will often convince somebody to clean out a closet that they're like, it's fine. Nobody sees it. And then I get notes saying like, I show up differently.
I dress differently. I feel more confident at work. Like I had no idea the cost of the clutter in my closet. So with something that can sound so superficial, but really has so much depth and, um, You know, I work primarily with women and I work around guilt and shame and trauma and depression and like everything.
Leslie: That was actually the second quote.
Shira: Oh, okay. Then I beat you to it.
Leslie: I'll actually say what the quote is really quickly. Buried under the clutter is often shame, guilt, anxiety, depression, and loss.
Shira: Look at that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and that emerged, you know, I started this career. a long time ago. And it really was just kind of this organic thing.
I got laid off from a job and was like, let me help people in their homes until I figure out what's next. And then once I got into the closets and, you know, into the drawers and the cabinets, it was, I started noticing every single client that I helped would shed tears, would tell me their stories. And I started realizing like, This is just a gateway to really help people, like, uncover where they're stuck, where they're struggling, what's going on beneath the surface, um, and, and that is why I became a certified life coach, because I felt like I had kind of hit a wall in what I could do just improvising, and I really wanted more of a, sort of, like, toolkit to help people on a deeper level.
Leslie: Was that part helpful for you? Getting the life coaching piece in?
Shira: Yes I mean it was helpful. Not just to have a new toolkit for my clients, but for me personally and professionally I feel like after I got certified as a life coach.
I doubled my income in the next year. Oh, well because I got rid of a lot of my, like, money issues and the blocks that I was dealing with in my own business. Um, it was very healing around the loss of my father and other places in my life where I just felt like I had hit a wall and I was stuck. Um, yeah, it just gave me a new, I guess skill set for getting unstuck.
Leslie: Cool. Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting. I'm just sort of thinking about what you're saying about, let's say the notion of an overstuffed closet or someone not, someone having a feeling of like, I didn't understand what a big impact that was going to have on me. And it's interesting to just sort of think about, Some of the mental health aspects of this, so for example, I know that you don't work with hoarders, you generally speaking work with people who are very highly functioning and not at the risk of offending anybody, a lot of times like really serious hoarders are struggling with their functioning in ways that like, I know that that's not your target client.
Correct. Yeah. But it's just interesting to think for a moment about, like, the mental health impacts of the way that people live, the impact that they have on their environment, the impact that their environment then has back on them. And I wonder, like, if it's not necessarily hoarding that you're dealing with or that you feel like you're, you're ever working with, will you say a little bit about from a mental health standpoint, what are some of the things that you see in your work?
Shira: Yeah, absolutely. So I would say. Um, shame is probably number one. Um, I think often, even when I just show up at someone's front door,
Leslie: Yeah.
Shira: They open the door and they start crying. And, like, instantly, within two seconds. And, so a lot of my job has become just saying to people, like, it's okay. Yeah. Like, what, like, ever is going on here, like, we're gonna solve it, we're gonna figure it out together, but like, shame is optional, and there's not really much of an upside in beating yourself up, right?
Leslie: Can I tell you what immediately comes to mind for me though when I hear that? Because it's such an interesting thing to think about. I think that even in the world of traditional psychotherapy, People are often accustomed to feeling like they can at least try to hide, let's say, shame. Yeah. And what it is that you do is go into environments where, like, there is no hiding.
Yeah. From the standpoint that our environment can be very much so, like, a reflection of our inner worlds, there's no hiding. Yeah. That's actually super interesting for me to hear.
Shira: It's extraordinarily vulnerable. Mm hmm. And I think I've never been on the other side of it, right? Yeah. Because I've never had a professional organizer come into my home and literally go through my underwear drawer, right?
And my nightstand and under my kitchen sink. Like, when I think about it, I'm like, I don't know. That is so brave that people are inviting a stranger to come in and there's such a fear of judgment, such a fear of like, and, and like you mentioned, I work with a lot of like, very successful, high functioning, high, high performers who in their kind of outside life feel like they're killing it.
Right. And so the home life feels like this just Dirty, shameful secret that's like, I should be better at this. I can't believe I can't get this together on my own. It's mortifying that I have to hire someone to help me do this. Um, and often people joke like I'm paying you all this money to sit and babysit me because I would just never be able to do this on my own.
Yeah. Um, and I, you know, kind of say, well, I would never run unless somebody literally forced me to run. So, you know, we all have our things. And for me. It's such a joy and an honor to be able to sit beside someone who feels that vulnerable and kind of hold their hand and say like, we're here and you want to get there and I'm going to be on this ride with you and like you're safe.
It's fine.
Leslie: It's a beautiful way to put it because it does feel like such an intimate. Act, you know, and I'm, I'm just sort of thinking about this. Like the word authenticity is coming to mind around the difference between the way that somebody is presenting in the world and the way that they're living at home.
Like if you are presenting in, you know, just a high performing capacity, I'm imagining a super successful person.
Shira: Yes. But you kind of feel like, oh my God, my closets are, you know, whatever it is. I mean,
I've worked with NASA scientists and celebrities and attorneys and doctors and surgeons and, you know, everyone you can imagine.
Yeah. And it's so interesting because I have to say to them like, I could never be a surgeon, you know, like, but I don't have shame around not being a surgeon. So like, why don't you stop having shame about not being organized? It's just not your intrinsic gift. Right. But like, look at what you are doing out in the world.
Leslie: I love that so much. It's perfect. So just sort of like moving along a little bit, obviously we talked about your origin story and kind of how you got here, but Like, what drives you around this now? What fuels your passion for this stuff and keeps you going?
Shira: Yeah. So, minimalism has personally and professionally, like, amplified and improved every part of my life.
And so it's one of those things where, like, when you figure something out, you just want to scream it from the rooftops and help people. So there's certainly that. And then there's just my innate curiosity about people. And so I think it's like, I arrived at this very Oddball niche profession that is literally helping people go through their most intimate possessions.
Um, and it's almost a way of like studying humans and human behavior and psychology and, um, and unlocking what people really deeply care about. And I think that's what really motivates me is like this quest to help people live a more intentional life. But what's so fascinating about it is. everyone has a completely different version of what that looks like.
So like, I've worked with people that are like, I want to sell everything and like, be in a mobile home and travel around the world and take photographs. And I'm like, okay, let's do it. Right. And so I just think it's, it's a career that's, it's, endlessly fascinating and stimulating. Yeah. Um, and the fact that I can help people along the way, it's just, for me, it's like a perfect profession.
Leslie: I love that. And I know that you and I have also talked a lot separately about this idea of, um, the way in which sort of how we live, whether or not we're organized, this idea that it kind of like, infiltrates every other element of our lives and sort of like what it means to be intentional in that sense.
Yeah. And I wonder if you want to like elaborate on that a little bit, like, what are some of the ways in which you think that this whole issue has like tentacles into other, the other parts of a person's life?
Shira: Yeah. Yeah. So I can give you some very concrete examples, right? Like I've, I've worked with a man who had gotten divorced And just was stuck in time, paralyzed, like couldn't move on.
And his home, when you walked into it, it was like a time capsule of his wife, who was no longer there, who had left him. And down to like pink frilly curtains, and this was a man who loved sports, and he was living with two teenage boys who loved sports. And he just was stuck. And I could tell it was holding him back.
And, what's been really interesting to me is to see that, like, I've had a very hard time convincing people through logic and through thought change to take action. But if we take action, their thoughts change. Yes. And so, like, with him, he was stuck, stuck, stuck. He knew he was stuck. And I said, well, we just have to start removing things that don't feel good.
And like, we made it an intuitive process and he was ready. And so it was like, down came the pink frilly curtains and down came, you know, the dining room table he never liked that was his ex wife. And we ended up kind of slowly rebuilding a home that really encapsulated the life he wanted to lead. with his teenage sons.
He was a single dad. And, you know, three months later, he called me and was like, I've met somebody. I'm in love. My career is thriving. Like it just like was a catalyst to change on every level.
Leslie: I love that so much. It's amazing. It's such a good story.
Shira: Yeah, it's, I mean, I have so many of those stories, you know, it's, what I really see is that it's, if you are stuck in your home and your environment, it affects you on a subconscious level every day.
And I've seen people who have lost weight, who have changed careers, who have found partners, who have left partners like. It's just a catalyst for change, if you allow it to be.
Leslie: It all makes perfect sense to me. And there's a part of me that wonders, like, if you are open to getting a little, like, woo for a minute, do you look at it at all through the lens of, like, moving energy? I do.
Shira: Yes. And you know, I'm from California and specifically the Bay Area, so I embrace the woo. So, yes. This podcast is being recorded in California. Yeah, right. We're in LA. Um, yeah. Let the woo reign. Um, I think certainly. I mean, I feel it, right? You, if you're in a room, a room has a certain energy. And I think for me, it's always been this intuitive dance in my own space where I'm not even thinking like, now I'm going to organize.
I'm more so thinking something doesn't feel good to me in this space. I'm going to reorient things and remove things. Until it feels good. So that certainly is an energetic dance. And I think for people, like I had a, a client recently who was a shopaholic, who was like completely numbing out and buffering difficult emotions through shopping.
And everywhere in her home, it was covered with receipts and plastic bags and boxes and shopping bags, right? And so by the time we stopped working together, I had her pause all of her shopping for a month as an experiment. And so slowly all of those bags got recycled and the receipts got thrown away and things got donated and consigned.
And then when she walked into her home, there wasn't a physical reminder of this thing that she was shameful about. It was gone. And so I think working, you know, we've talked about like the outside in and the inside out. It's all important. But I think sometimes when someone's really feeling stuck, starting from the outside and just saying, we're just going to transform your environment.
That's it. It can be so powerful.
Leslie: Yeah. I love that. And I was thinking about it particularly with the example from the first guy about the idea that he even had met someone. Like it's interesting to think that when a person feels really stuck, you kind of think about just sort of the physical, uh, embodiment of that feeling of stuckness and the thought of like a full grown man living with like pink frilly curtains.
Like who wants to take a woman back to that, right? Yeah. So it's sort of interesting to think that like, There's just this really interesting interplay of the way the sort of like our insides meet our outsides and our outsides kind of like meet our insides. Exactly. Yeah.
Shira: I mean, I always love to start by just asking people how do you want to live and what do you dream of for your future before we do anything in their home.
Yeah. And what's interesting, a lot of people don't know because no one's ever asked them and they've never asked themselves. So I think starting with that, what do you want? And then you move the stuff around instead of just randomly moving piles around saying I'm getting organized.
Leslie: I love that so much, especially just because I believe really Deeply that it's a sort of the question of what do you want is one of the most important questions we can ever, ever ask ourselves.
And it's funny how people, some people can go their whole lives, never, never being asked that question, never asking themselves that question.
Shira: Yeah. Yeah. Not feeling room.
Leslie: Say that again.
Shira: Not feeling room or like spaciousness for us. Exactly. Yeah.
Leslie: Yeah. And not feeling like, uh, and I actually think this goes back to really early childhood stuff because so often kids are raised being made to feel by the adults around them.
Like it doesn't matter what they want. And so if you learn that at a really early age, especially if you learn it in like a really impactful way, like people stop reaching, they stop. Yeah. They stop asking. Yeah. Yeah. I know. So this brings us to one of the questions that I have been most excited to ask you about because it's super juicy to me, which is kind of cultural components of this.
Yeah. I wonder if you can educate our listeners a little bit about how you think about this from a cultural point of view.
Shira: Yes. So, I mean, it's interesting because I started my career about 15 years ago when pretty much no one knew what a professional organizer was. And I remember my father just being baffled by the profession, just being like, you're going to help people sort through their stuff.
Like this is a thing. Like what a phenomenon. Right. And it dawned on me then. And even more so now that this whole career is predicated on a culture that has more Um, then it can keep up with, right? We have acquired more than we can physically, mentally, or emotionally manage. And so I see it as a huge problem specifically for the United States, which I think is like the land of the hedonistic treadmill and the more, more, more.
Big time. Big time. Um, so when I was researching for this latest book and I was interviewing organizers around the world, what was especially fascinating is that I had a hard time finding organizers in parts of the world simply because culturally it wasn't relevant. They didn't have more than they could manage.
They could clean up their stuff at the end of the day. They didn't have storage units. Like it wasn't part of the lifestyle. Yeah. Whereas I think in LA it's probably like the capital. You know, huge capital consumerism culture here. Yes. And so I know more organizers in L. A. than I do in any other city. And in fact, my publisher said to me when I was scouting for this book, you have 15 organizers in L.A. Like we need to diversify where the organizers are from. Oh my God, that is so wild. I know. So I was like, okay, Canada, what have we got? You know, like.
Leslie: And, like good luck in Japan.
Shira: I couldn't. I couldn't. Good luck. And even, my brother has spent half of his life in Japan and asked all of his friends and they were like, uh, no, you know, not a thing.
Leslie: Yeah.
Shira: Um, simply because the spaces are much smaller. And not to say that there isn't consumption in other places.
Leslie: But it's a fastidious culture and not nearly as consumer driven as the United States culture is.
Shira: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And even, you know, the people that I interviewed, I did find organizers across Europe and Paris and Stockholm and Lisbon, but all of them are consumer driven, kind of confided that it was really hard to break through and that culturally people would say, I don't know why I would hire you. I'll just clean up my stuff. And so, and in Mexico, it was also the woman who I interviewed said she had to try so hard to explain what this was because people just were flummoxed.
I'm in California, there's an organizer on every block. You know, like, everyone's got an organizer.
Leslie: It's like, you get an organizer, you get an organizer.
Shira: Yeah. And so, you know, it's troubling on some level because I think, you know, my philosophy is anchored in minimalism and sustainability. And my real goal is that people wouldn't need an organizer because they would have less stuff to manage.
Um, and then I'd be out of a job, but I'd figure out something else to do. I mean, I think ultimately my goal is to help people live much more thoughtfully and intentionally because I see that there's a huge cost to clutter. And I'm sure you know this and your listeners know this, but like the thrill and the dopamine hit of buying something is so very fleeting.
And what I've seen firsthand again and again, is the crash that follows of guilt and remorse and regret and credit card bills and fighting with spouses. is huge compared to that three seconds of like, I got a new purse and I'm going to feel better. A purse can't make you feel better. And so I work with people who are surrounded by the most beautiful treasures, but they feel empty.
Leslie: It is so amazing to me. I mean, it's a, it's a theme that actually comes up on this podcast again and again from different angles. Um, one is that just a little plug for an interview that I recently did with, uh, um, someone named Jet, where we were talking about how depressed oftentimes people are in American culture and this irony of the fact that we sort of materially have everything but are actually really struggling with a lot of, a lot of like loneliness and isolation.
And I actually don't think it's a coincidence. I think it's basically the fact that we have been told that Buying things, consuming things, like that's where we're going to find happiness is like, it's, it's backfiring on us and it's backfiring on us badly. Yes. And I think something that I just want to make super clear as we're having this conversation, because I find this endlessly fascinating, but I think a lot of people don't realize how much mental health in general is cultural.
Like, there are a lot of things that people struggle with in the United States, in epidemic proportions, be it depression, eating disorders. We don't see these things the world over in the same way. So in the same way that we are, you know, sort of like, I would say epically struggling with consumer culture in this country.
Yeah. We're also struggling with like sort of the fallout of living in a world that is so focused on how people look or how they're dressed or what they own or what that, you know, like it's, it's not working.
Shira: Yeah. And I can tell you, I mean, I, I currently am working with a billionaire client who said to me, I'm sick when I look around and see all that we've acquired and none of us are happy.
And I see that again and again and it's so interesting because it is like you can have it all but it will never fill what's going on inside. And I think At the end of the day, nobody's looking for more handbags. They're looking for connection and community and contribution and all of those meaty things.
But we're not fed that message, right? Like we're not fed the message by social media, like go out and take a walk with your friend. We're fed the message like you need this sweatsuit immediately. So I think what I'm trying to do, you know, with my work and in my personal life, is just to question and like take a beat before buying to really consider and to teach my kids to consider what's going to happen when you buy this thing.
Are you really going to feel better? Are you really going to feel more popular or is it an endless never ending cycle?
Leslie: So good. So to shift gears a little bit here, I'm kind of curious to know a little bit more about what you see in some of the people that you've worked with. You know, I know that, um, you know, you were talking about how much better people feel when they, let's say, like, clean out the closet.
They didn't even think needed to be organized. But like, what are some of the other things that you notice in your work with people in this? Yeah.
Shira: So I hear More times than you can imagine, the like, I'm just not an organized person. Like I was born without the gene. I'm never, you know, I'm doomed to never be organized.
And what I've learned from my work is really the most difficult part of getting organized is making decisions. But organization in and of itself is extremely simple. And so the kind of analogy I give is I have two kids and when they were very little and we would go trick or treating, when we were done collecting all the candy bars, I would sit them down and say like, okay, like, let's dump out your candy.
And they just intuitively would organize it. Like all the Reese's together and all the M& M's together.
Leslie: Well they were also raised by you.
Shira: They were my daughter, but. I do think that most kids intuitively do this with their Halloween candy, and I didn't have to teach them, right? I wasn't like, okay, take all the M& M's and put them in a pile.
Their brains wanted to group similar things together.
Leslie: Yeah.
Shira: And that is all that organizing is. It is literally batching things by type and giving each category a designated home. And so what I say to people who kind of say, I just can't, I don't have that gene, is I say, well, if my kids can do it as toddlers with their Halloween candy, I promise I can teach you.
Yeah. And then I kind of explain to them, the thing that's really hard and human about getting organized is most of it is about editing and letting go. And that's the hard part. And that's hard even for me. That's hard for most human beings, right? We're kind of wired to, you know, to hold on to things and to do things that make us feel safe and secure.
So letting go, what I find is the brain naturally goes to scarcity and goes to, what if I need that thing? Or, you know, I grew up without, how could I get rid of this when it's useful or valuable? How could I take it for granted? Um, and so much, most of the kind of coaching work that I do with people is around shifting to more of an abundant, like, resourced.
Um, perspective where I walk them through like, what if you did get rid of that safety pin? Like, then what if you needed a safety pin? What would you do? And they're like, oh, I would buy one from the store or I would ask a friend, right? And they can kind of play it out and see the world wouldn't end. And then the thing that I ask that's really helped people when they feel stuck in that, like, what if, what if, is I just give them the choice with no judgment?
Would you rather have the stuff or the thing, the object, or the space that it's taking up in your home? And it's so interesting because for some people they'll say like, well I think I just really want to keep this thing for another few years and see if I use it or wear it or whatever. And other people will say like, Oh yeah, like, I want space.
I want breathing room. That's what I'm here to do. Get rid of the thing. It's easy, right? So, um, so yeah, that's kind of one of the biggest themes that comes up is both the like, I can't be organized and, you know, my response obviously is like, yes, you can. And then the, the, the real sticking point is that, and I'm sure you see this in your work, the loss is really hard.
Anything that triggers a feeling of loss. And what's interesting is I had a friend who said to me, because I've had a lot of loss in my life through losing family members, through multiple divorces in my family. And my friend said, it's so interesting that you picked this career because really what you're doing is you're helping people navigate loss again and again and again, but in a controlled way.
Yeah. And I just thought that's so crazy. Like I didn't ever think that, but I think that's part of why this profession to me feels so soothing is it's almost like doing it in a controlled environment where it's like, I'm in the driver's seat. I make the decisions. I decide what stay, what stays and what goes instead of happening.
Leslie: I love that. It's beautiful. It kind of reminds me of the notion of sort of controlled burns. You know how like, so here in the state of California, we sometimes have to deliberately burn forests so that they don't burn out of control on their own. I'm sort of thinking about that.
Shira: Totally. Isn't that remarkable?
I know. It's really interesting and it's interesting because sometimes, I mean, usually by the time somebody decides. to work with someone like me. They're really ready and they've done a lot of the emotional and mental pre work. But sometimes I work with someone who's like, I got to take baby steps. This is really hard for me.
Yeah. And I want my house to look like your house, but like, it's never going to, like I, it's a bridge too far. And so I help people try to just define like, well, what is success for you? And sometimes it's like, I just want to find my keys.
Leslie: Yeah. That's okay. Something so simple, right? Yeah. Well, so one of the things that I'm thinking about, I sort of feel like in, within what you're saying right now, there's this notion of identity, right?
Like how do people see themselves, which I think is, is crucial and sort of vital to all of this. Like what is the I am in all of this? Does somebody feel like they are an organized person? Does somebody feel like they are a messy person? You know, is that a thing that they would like to change? Is it something that they feel like they can change?
But part of, part of behavior change, I think oftentimes it's the, it's the hardest part to get at, but it's stuff that is identity oriented. Like, how do you, how do you see yourself and what is your self concept?
Shira: A thousand percent. And I think for some people, like going through life saying, I'm such a mess.
It's, it is, it's almost like a fun part of their identity that maybe they don't want to let go of.
Leslie: Oh yeah. It might be serving them in some way. Sort of a question that I would ask at a time like that is just sort of like, what is the good thing that comes from being messy? Oh, I love that question. Yeah.
And I think it's a question that we can ask ourselves all the time. Like even if, if someone is doing something that is seemingly dysfunctional to ask yourself or to ask them, like what good thing comes from? Totally. Being a mess.
Shira: Yes. And I had, I had one client who stood out to me who, she had two young kids and there was like finger paint on the wall and, you know, like glosses in the entry with water everywhere.
And she said to me, you know, part of me just loves the mess of life. Like it was really hard to have these kids. And now I look around at their little fingerprints and it like fills my heart. Whereas somebody else could look at that and think. I'm failing. I'm, I have this shameful secret. This is mortifying.
If only my mother in law came over, like I would die. Right? And so I like to help people just go like, let's separate out the facts from the thoughts you have about the facts. Like there are a lot of things in this room, right? That's the fact. How do you want to feel about it? Do you want to feel like I'm a hot mess and like nobody's going to want to date me?
Or do you want to feel like. I'm capable of cleaning up this mess and, like, making a beautiful home for my family. Yes. Like, we always get to choose. That's what I think is so empowering. Yes. We always get to decide what do we want to do next with this information
Leslie: Yes. And your life is not happening to you, and the level of mess in your home is not a thing that is happening to you. And it means nothing about you.
Shira: Yes. I think that's where people really, And I think the most important thing is that they're not going to be able to go hard on themselves. Is that kind of internal sense of deep, deep shame of like, this is so mortifying. How have I let myself go? How have I let my house go?
Especially for mothers, there's so much shame on like, I can't run the household like my mother did. Um, and I think. Um, just seeing it as like, this is a room with a lot of things in it. What do you want to do with those things?
Leslie: Yeah. It's so simple. Yeah. You don't have to take it so personally. Yeah. Yeah.
Like strip away all the drama. I love it. So I'm aware of the fact that lots of people listening are never going to be able to work with you personally, but they can get your books, which are beautiful and very comprehensive. Um, is there anything that we haven't talked about yet today that you want to add as kind of a final thought for anybody?
Shira: Well, I think, like, I always love to end with, like, an actionable challenge. Ooh, I like it. So, um, I started this thing called the 15 minute win a few years ago because most of my job is helping people navigate through overwhelm and sometimes paralysis. And I certainly face that in other scenarios too. And so my invitation is take something that feels a little overwhelming.
Um, it could be as little as like cleaning out your handbag or, you know, cleaning out your refrigerator or making a phone call that you don't feel like making. But the 15 minute win is just set a timer for 15 minutes, focus on the one task and see if you can complete it. And so what I love about this challenge is you have to go really micro.
And so the smaller the better. Honestly, if you can like commit to doing something in 10 seconds, great. Like pick something off the floor that was bothering you or clear the surface next to your nightstand that, you know, has old coffee mugs that drives you crazy. Um, but just the invitation to take action in a really tiny micro way that will make you feel good.
Leslie: Fantastic. That's great. Well, thank you so much for doing this with me, Shira. I've loved it. It has been an absolute pleasure. I could talk to you all day. Same here. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much. You've been watching or listening to The Nature of Nurture with me, Dr. Leslie Carr, and I want to thank you for joining us.
You can find Shira at shiragill. com and she's @shiragill on Instagram. I'm @DrLeslieCarr. Many thanks to Shira for having this conversation with me and to all the people who worked behind the scenes to make this happen. Full credits can be found in the show notes. If you found this conversation valuable, please let me know by leaving a review or rating or by sharing the episode with at least one person who you think might enjoy it too.
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