Dr. Leslie Carr is joined by Orly Israel, founder of The Listening Table, a project offering free, neutral, judgment-free spaces where people can sit down and be heard without interruption, advice, or fixing. Orly shares how his listening practice began through a prison communication workshop, how “just listening” can build trust faster than we think, and what he’s learned from years of hearing strangers’ real stories in public. The conversation also turns deeply personal as Orly reflects on losing his home in the Palisades Fire and the long tail of trauma that followed: displacement, instability, guilt, and the challenge of rebuilding a grounded life while trying to stay mission-driven. Together, Leslie and Orly explore the loneliness epidemic, the role of connection in preventing crisis, why men struggle to form emotionally supportive friendships, and what it actually looks like to show up for people in the aftermath of disaster.
Host Leslie is joined by Orly Israel, founder of The Listening Table, which offers judgment-free spaces where people can sit down and be heard without interruption, advice, or fixing. Orly shares how his listening practice began through a prison communication workshop, how “just listening” can build trust faster than we think, and what he’s learned from years of hearing strangers’ real stories in public.
The conversation also turns deeply personal as Orly reflects on losing his home in the Palisades Fire, and the long tail of trauma that followed: displacement, instability, guilt, and the challenge of rebuilding a grounded life while trying to stay mission-driven. Together, Leslie and Orly explore the loneliness epidemic, the role of connection in preventing crisis, why men struggle to form emotionally supportive friendships—as well as what it looks like to show up for people in the aftermath of disaster.
Guest
Orly Israel is the founder of The Listening Table, an initiative offering neutral, judgment-free spaces where people can be heard without interruption or advice. Since 2020, the project has been viewed online by millions and has inspired dozens of listening tables worldwide.
Resources & Links
The Listening Table
The Nature of Nurture
Patreon Membership
https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheNatureofNurture
Watch on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@TheNatureofNurture
Credits
Hosted by Dr. Leslie Carr
Guest: Orly Israel
Produced by Dr. Leslie Carr and Bri Coorey
Recorded at SLAP Studios LA
00:00:20:18 - 00:00:39:22
Leslie
Welcome to the fifth season of The Nature of Nurture with Doctor Leslie Carr. A podcast for your mental health. I'm your host, Leslie. If you're watching this podcast right now, you can find the audio version on any podcast app. And if you're listening, you can also watch this episode on YouTube. The nature of nurture. You can find that link in the show notes.
00:00:40:00 - 00:01:06:16
Leslie
Today we're here with Orly Israel. Early is the founder of The Listening Table, an initiative that offers neutral, judgment free spaces where people can sit and simply be heard without interruption or advice for free. Since early kick this off in 2020, it's taken the internet by storm. It's been watched online by over 8 million people, and over 40 tables have been created globally as a result of what Orly learned through creating this experience.
00:01:06:16 - 00:01:40:10
Leslie
He now speaks and teaches about the power of listening and communication. With one goal to help the loneliness epidemic, in a moment you'll hear us say more about that and how he got started. But we're also going to talk about something else on January 7th, 2025, several fires burned in Los Angeles and the one in the Palisades, very close to where I live, ripped through 23,000 acres of land and over 1500 homes, one of which was always because also active on the internet and is accustomed to filming his life and putting it online.
00:01:40:12 - 00:02:00:04
Leslie
It was only natural that he and a friend filmed themselves trying to put out the fire and ultimately running for their lives. The footage was widely used by news outlets. So if you've seen any footage from the Palisades Fire, you may have already seen it early. As a friend of mine, we know each other because his mother and I share very close mutual friends.
00:02:00:05 - 00:02:21:18
Leslie
With all his permission. We're going to include footage from the fire in this episode. As someone who cares about him very much, it's hard for me to watch. But I do think that it's valuable to include it. So please watch and listen with care. And now Orly, Israel. So you and I are going to talk about a lot of fucked up shit today.
00:02:21:20 - 00:02:24:13
Orly
So stoked. I'm going to say some funny things.
00:02:24:15 - 00:02:43:12
Leslie
I get cancer, I believe it, I believe it. Let's let's do it. Let's do it together. Let's get canceled. Okay, so I want to back up a little bit. And just so that people can have a little context for you and know who you are. So if I have it right, you were 27 years old when you started the listening table, right?
00:02:43:13 - 00:02:48:00
Leslie
Yeah. How did it get started? Let's let's start from the beginning.
00:02:48:02 - 00:02:53:13
Orly
So it goes way back to when I was in prison. This is true. It's not accurate.
00:02:53:13 - 00:02:56:03
Leslie
You just weren't an inmate. You were an. I was an inmate.
00:02:56:05 - 00:02:58:12
Orly
Volunteering in a prison.
00:02:58:13 - 00:02:58:23
Leslie
00:02:59:04 - 00:03:24:13
Orly
I mean, it goes further back because I had relationship issues when I was through my whole life just wanting. Yeah. More out of relationships. I think there are challenges that I ran into being like we should be having more fun and less arguments. And I went to this prison communication skills workshop. I was in, Primal Kitchen restaurant, and I said to my friends, mom, I really just want to do, like, volunteering.
00:03:24:15 - 00:03:51:11
Orly
I'm sick of working and playing. I want to do something good for the world. And she's like, do this. Freedom to choose prison communication skills workshop. I go to the training two hour, two days over a weekend. My mom is like, I want to come to. And then we're trained on listening in these triangle patterns. The trios, me, the facilitator.
00:03:51:13 - 00:04:15:02
Orly
Then there was the sharer, and then there was the neutral observer. Yeah. And these three roles would kind of make up this meaningful conversation. We go to prison and implement this sharer, facilitator, neutral observer about meaningful topics. And after this, one of the women came up in the prison and said, yeah, this was like people are wearing normal street clothes.
00:04:15:02 - 00:04:19:04
Orly
I really thought there was jumpsuits and stuff, but it was kind of like, okay, this.
00:04:19:04 - 00:04:23:00
Leslie
Is like a minimum security prison or something like that. I think it was like a level two. Okay.
00:04:23:03 - 00:04:37:12
Orly
And there's 4 or 5 levels. Okay. So level two and a woman came up to me and said, you are the first man I've ever trusted in my life. Wow. And she's, you know, in her 40s, probably. Yeah. I thought I was crazy.
00:04:37:14 - 00:04:38:06
Leslie
Yeah.
00:04:38:08 - 00:04:52:12
Orly
And we also had some really meaningful conversations, and people kept saying, I'm so grateful you're here. And I left the prison going, I can't believe people don't have these kind of conversations until they get to prison, right?
00:04:52:12 - 00:04:55:19
Leslie
Because what if they. You shouldn't have to go to prison to have such a good conversation, right?
00:04:55:19 - 00:05:23:19
Orly
It's exactly what I said. And I thought, I haven't had conversations like that with a lot of people in my life. And my mom, who knows I care about this, kept saying, take these classes in Nonviolent Communication because she was doing that. I signed up for one. I also signed up for a Stanford Business Improv in the workspace communication class because I wanted like double fist communication skills.
00:05:23:21 - 00:05:30:00
Orly
And the first part of both of the classes was listening.
00:05:30:02 - 00:05:30:20
Leslie
Yeah.
00:05:30:22 - 00:05:42:06
Orly
And then one of the teachers said learning how to communicate is a lot like learning how to swim. You can read every book on swimming in the world, but if I don't throw you in the pool, you never get to learn how to swim.
00:05:42:07 - 00:05:43:10
Leslie
Yeah.
00:05:43:12 - 00:06:02:14
Orly
And so I said, great. You got to learn how to swim. I made a list, like 30 things I could do that would let me do listening, because that was step one of the whole journey. And the easiest thing on the list was right here to listen on a sign and sit next to it.
00:06:02:16 - 00:06:03:13
Leslie
00:06:03:15 - 00:06:07:00
Orly
I did it. It was life changing.
00:06:07:02 - 00:06:10:19
Leslie
And in, in public. You mean like you just sort of went out in public and put the sign up?
00:06:10:19 - 00:06:23:05
Orly
I did it across from my high school on accident. My roommate and best friend told me later, dude, that's weird. Why sitting in front of a high school trying to get people to come talk to you.
00:06:23:06 - 00:06:23:17
Leslie
Some kind of.
00:06:23:17 - 00:06:35:04
Orly
Pervert like you're some kind of pervert? Because then they'd know. They'd know. But a woman who lived next door to me. I know it's crazy, because.
00:06:35:06 - 00:06:38:03
Leslie
It's like, not going to be able to keep a straight face for the whole. One of the.
00:06:38:03 - 00:06:51:20
Orly
Girls came up to me from the high school a year and a half later, because I did it around the area I lived in. I was at the beach and this woman comes up and she says, I saw this table across from my school.
00:06:51:22 - 00:06:52:20
Leslie
00:06:52:22 - 00:07:10:20
Orly
I don't know how long ago. And it was at least a year and a half. She's like, I wish you came back. I needed to talk to somebody. Yeah. Multiple people came up and said my high school girls struggle. Yeah. I can't speak much to how it is to be a high school girl. Only a little bit.
00:07:10:22 - 00:07:21:03
Orly
Yeah. A couple of weeks and you know. But I've gotten a chance to listen to a bunch of younger women, and.
00:07:21:05 - 00:07:42:09
Leslie
It sounds tough. Yeah. So will you tell us a little bit more about that for the people that did show up and did open up to you and took advantage of this opportunity to just have you listen in this non-judgmental fashion. Like, what did you learn from it? What kinds of things did people open up to you about or tell you?
00:07:42:11 - 00:07:43:22
Orly
Very few good things.
00:07:44:00 - 00:07:44:10
Leslie
Yeah.
00:07:44:14 - 00:07:45:15
Orly
You know, most people, they didn't.
00:07:45:15 - 00:07:49:13
Leslie
Feel the need to be heard about, like all the things that were, oh my God. Well, in their lives.
00:07:49:14 - 00:07:50:00
Orly
Right?
00:07:50:03 - 00:07:51:18
Leslie
Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:51:20 - 00:08:03:09
Orly
Well, I remember the first conversation when someone came up and said, I'm having a great day. I just want to tell you are the best. But that is a rare conversation.
00:08:03:10 - 00:08:05:14
Leslie
Yeah.
00:08:05:16 - 00:08:11:16
Orly
What do people talk about? Sad, heavy things that they can't tell other people.
00:08:11:18 - 00:08:30:00
Leslie
And what was that like for you? Like, did you struggle at all, especially in the beginning with wanting to fix it or what was it like? You know, obviously you'd had some training, you'd done the nonviolent communication thing, you did the thing in the prison and that kind of stuff. But was there did it evoke feelings in you of wanting or wanting to fix it for people?
00:08:30:02 - 00:08:50:20
Orly
I think the more I did it, the more I wanted to fix it. Yeah, instead of the at the beginning I thought, well, my goal is to practice listening. So I'm going to listen. I'm going to reflect. I'm going to say things like it sounds like you're feeling overwhelmed right. Let me label the emotional feeling. If I get it right then you feel heard and seen.
00:08:50:20 - 00:08:54:08
Orly
Yeah. If I get it wrong then I'm showing that I'm interested.
00:08:54:10 - 00:08:59:06
Leslie
And opening the door. Like, if nothing else, they can correct you, right? Right. Yeah, totally.
00:08:59:06 - 00:09:20:00
Orly
Because that's still shows my focus is on you. I'm trying to understand. If I don't understand, at least I'm trying. And then maybe you can guide me in the right direction, or I'm right and you haven't realized it. Which is the best listening is when I say it sounds like you're feeling this way and people go.
00:09:20:02 - 00:09:42:04
Leslie
Oh, yeah. Like they didn't even know, right? That there's this feeling that you're labeling something that they couldn't even see. You're reminding me right now of. So there's a very famous psychiatrist, named D.W. Winnicott, Donald Winnicott. And one of his great quotes is I make interpretations for two reasons. One is to prove to the patient that I can be listening, and the other is to prove that I can be wrong.
00:09:42:06 - 00:10:04:20
Leslie
So it's like, it's okay to be wrong, but I hear you and what you're saying that like when you reflect something back to somebody and you get it right, it is amazing how sometimes you can mirror something back to somebody that they don't even know, like they don't know what they're feeling until you mirror it back to them, which is a pretty incredible experience to have.
00:10:04:22 - 00:10:23:13
Orly
Yeah. And listening itself is rarely enough. I feel, in this world where we have to be constantly stimulated to do the act of listening, which I think doesn't get a fair rub because it's effective and good. Yes. Is to say like, yeah, be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I hear that. Oh, you feel in this kind of way.
00:10:23:16 - 00:10:35:01
Orly
Yeah. And sometimes there are people who also practice listening and we all know some of the same techniques. And you go for a sack. You're using the techniques on me.
00:10:35:03 - 00:10:49:01
Leslie
Right? But it also feels great. Yeah. Isn't that funny how that works? One of the things I almost wonder if you and I should just sort of review the principles of active listening for people, but I think that one of the things that can be good about this stuff is it's almost like you learn it so that you can forget it.
00:10:49:01 - 00:11:04:07
Leslie
In my experience or opinion, you know, it's almost like because you don't necessarily have to use the skills actively, but you have to know what they are in order to kind of consciously not use them. Right.
00:11:04:09 - 00:11:05:14
Orly
So you can break them exactly.
00:11:05:14 - 00:11:07:17
Leslie
Know the rules so you can break them. So can.
00:11:07:17 - 00:11:18:12
Orly
You. But now I'm like a terrorist because, anything I do that's annoying, I have to be like. And I'm annoying all the time. You know. Oh, you're trying to annoy me. I'm like.
00:11:18:12 - 00:11:20:06
Leslie
Yes, I'm being.
00:11:20:06 - 00:11:24:21
Orly
A nuisance on purpose. I can't just be like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing.
00:11:24:23 - 00:11:28:02
Leslie
Oh, that's so funny. You know, any time you're not.
00:11:28:04 - 00:11:31:14
Orly
Agreeable and pleasant.
00:11:31:16 - 00:11:55:17
Leslie
Sure, sure. I know. I know what you mean. I mean, I think I often feel like there is, This might just be the standards that I hold myself to, but I think was like, you know, trained therapist. And as someone who's a psychologist, I do sometimes feel like I have to hold myself to a higher bar. Is that sort of what you're talking about for yourself, that there's this feeling of like, now that you're so trained in communication, you got to like, yeah, keep your keep engaged.
00:11:55:18 - 00:11:57:03
Leslie
Sure. Yes. You know, everything.
00:11:57:03 - 00:12:07:17
Orly
In politics, you have to have an opinion. Yeah. And as a listener, you have to hear everything. And so it's like, well, I have to accept the fact that my opinions are just my opinions.
00:12:07:19 - 00:12:08:05
Leslie
Yeah.
00:12:08:06 - 00:12:34:19
Orly
I don't know if I'm right or anything. I always am open the other side. And when we talk about some of the more controversial topics and I'm like, I have an opinion on this, but I don't know if my opinion is agrees with what I think is right because I want everyone to be taken care of. And if I want to be mad at somebody, I have to understand that just as a mad doesn't mean I think what they're doing is right or wrong yet.
00:12:34:21 - 00:12:35:15
Orly
Should I be explicit?
00:12:35:16 - 00:12:36:23
Leslie
Sure. Yeah.
00:12:37:00 - 00:12:39:20
Orly
We have the, like, the whole Israel Palestine thing.
00:12:40:01 - 00:13:02:06
Leslie
Yeah. Let's say that. Well, we're going to have to get through this because your last name is Israel. So we're going to have to we're we're going to have to beep out. So just so everybody knows you got a beep, let's say just so everybody knows. Let me just say this really quickly. So I have had an episode and one of the episodes in season four was effectively a shadow band because we said the word is real.
00:13:02:08 - 00:13:24:16
Leslie
And and I was getting these crazy messages from Google and YouTube saying that I'm not allowed to talk about Israeli politics or the Knesset. And I was trying to get a human on the phone to be like, we're literally it's literally just someone said the word Israel. And then I was laughing to myself the other day that because your last name is Israel, I might have to beep out your last name.
00:13:24:16 - 00:13:27:16
Orly
I know, I can't believe I'm your last name has been.
00:13:27:18 - 00:13:36:06
Leslie
Let's and now welcoming Orly. Beep. Say good bye. So. So say what you were going to say and we will. We'll deal with it later.
00:13:36:07 - 00:14:03:19
Orly
I will do it in a way that won't be flagged. Right. There is a place that feels bad because some people came in and stole a bunch of people's lives and living people. Yeah, and that place, let's call it the home of the Jews, the Holy Land. That place made a lot of booboos trying to get those people back.
00:14:03:21 - 00:14:10:05
Orly
And they made a lot of people feel really bad. A lot of booboos in the place that we will call. Not a place you want to be.
00:14:10:06 - 00:14:14:14
Leslie
We'll call it what people call me in high school.
00:14:14:16 - 00:14:38:13
Orly
That was my last name. And I came. This guy Orly, the place you want to be living right now? Sad story. And as much as I'm like, these are my people. This is what I think is right. I'm also like, this is wrong, but I don't know exactly how I'm supposed to feel because I want to hear both sides and take both sides.
00:14:38:15 - 00:14:45:08
Orly
Truth. As a listener, I get in my own way as someone who wants to be, like, really enraged.
00:14:45:10 - 00:15:06:13
Leslie
This feels so complicated to me, but in a really interesting way. So to take this back to listening for a moment, just to connect some dots. It seems to me that at the core of this is actually the problem, that people often don't listen to each other. You know, the problem in the Middle East is the problem from hell.
00:15:06:15 - 00:15:28:12
Leslie
And a big part of the reason why is because there's a lot of talking and even a lot of bomb throwing and virtually no listening. And I can only imagine that with all of the training that you have done in listening, you know, something that a lot of other people probably don't know, which is just that, you know, these are the basic tenants of FBI hostage negotiation, right?
00:15:28:12 - 00:15:48:02
Leslie
Like when someone takes hostages and someone from the FBI has to go in to solve the problem. Well, over 90% of what they do is just listen to the hostage taker because it de-escalate things. And it feels to me like part of what you're talking about is a problem that exists in the world because of a lack of listening.
00:15:48:08 - 00:15:52:05
Leslie
Yeah. It's not like that's the only problem, but it feels to me like it's a really big part of it.
00:15:52:11 - 00:16:11:11
Orly
And maybe I use an example that's a little more extreme. But the hostages, in any situation, that's probably a flagged word or, you know, it might just be your I'm going to make this a bad time party is going to be a bad party. If I'm in a bad mood, I'm not going to be in a good mood until my needs are met.
00:16:11:13 - 00:16:27:06
Orly
Right. That's, you know, I, I know people that can be really upset, in politics in America. Nobody's listening. Everyone's mad. Everyone's saying they're not listening to us, and they're saying they're not listening to us. And we can never meet in the middle. Or is that even the right thing to do?
00:16:27:08 - 00:16:39:15
Leslie
Do you does it feel to you, like, as a Jewish American, that you have to pick a side? Because it feels to me like part of what you're expressing is that you feel kind of caught in the middle here.
00:16:39:17 - 00:16:40:05
Orly
Like.
00:16:40:07 - 00:16:49:19
Leslie
Caught in the middle between sort of, you know, family loyalty, tribal loyalty and like, what you think is. Right.
00:16:49:21 - 00:17:04:18
Orly
I just think it's great to feel really passionate about something. And when you getting raised and go ride in the streets where you're fighting for or against something, it means you're taking action to make a change.
00:17:04:19 - 00:17:18:13
Leslie
Yeah. Do you feel like that's a big part of the problem of what we're dealing with in our culture right now, that perhaps tensions are so inflamed just because it feels good for people to feel something.
00:17:18:15 - 00:17:29:09
Orly
I think it feels great for people to be mad. Being mad is the best thing. Pissed. So much better than being mind numbed brain, right?
00:17:29:09 - 00:17:39:03
Leslie
Scroll central and just out of curiosity. Like please say more about what feels good about it because I have thoughts on what motivates you, right? Yeah. Yeah. You get mad, you want to.
00:17:39:05 - 00:17:48:12
Orly
Change something, you want to fix something. You get energy when you're mad. Yeah. When you're sad, you don't have energy. Kind of like spiraling.
00:17:48:12 - 00:18:05:19
Leslie
It is interesting that on sort of like the color wheel of feelings, right? It actually can be healthier, and it can feel better to be angry than to feel sad, because at least you feel mobilized, like you feel motivated and you feel. Yeah. I think anger has a bad rap in our culture.
00:18:05:21 - 00:18:06:20
Orly
Male anger, and.
00:18:06:20 - 00:18:25:01
Leslie
Perhaps especially male anger, and maybe for a good reason. And we'll get into that a little bit more in a little bit. But I think that anger is a human emotion like any other. And if we allow ourselves to feel it, it actually really can be quite, invigorating.
00:18:25:03 - 00:18:39:01
Orly
I was working with the coach a couple months ago, more than a couple of months ago, and he asked me, what are you mad about? And I said, I'm not mad. He's like, you're mad.
00:18:39:03 - 00:18:40:07
Leslie
00:18:40:09 - 00:19:06:08
Orly
What are you mad at? Are you mad yourself? And I was like now it's like you can be mad. You can be because I'm trying to be even. But it was a really wonderful accepting of I said, you know, okay, for a month, I'll just be mad. Just let myself be mad. I got a lot done. I got a lot done.
00:19:06:08 - 00:19:21:16
Orly
It was a really productive month, and I was furious intentionally about just situation I was in, or the possibilities of creating a situation I wanted to be in. And it was a great month for action.
00:19:21:18 - 00:19:40:14
Leslie
Yeah, I you know, I know that we're going to be a little bit all over the place today because there's an element of what we're here to talk about, where all of these different dots connect, like your work intersects with your personal life in interesting and meaningful ways. So I actually just want to switch gears for a moment.
00:19:40:18 - 00:19:55:23
Leslie
Yeah. And name the thing that we have not named yet. Name it because I would imagine that a lot of this anger and just sort of where you are in your head right now, has to do with the fires. Does that feel true, or am I guessing in the wrong direction?
00:19:56:02 - 00:20:06:18
Orly
I don't think I'm good at being mad, so I don't think about it too much. Like, you'd think that where we are in the week is I guess last week we found out a guy started the fire.
00:20:06:18 - 00:20:07:11
Leslie
Yeah.
00:20:07:13 - 00:20:29:02
Orly
And I see a lot of people really mad. Mad at the fire department. Mad at the guy at the mayor. And my natural reaction is, that's a bummer, but not. We should go get him. Yeah, we should go ride in the streets. So I'd like to be more mad.
00:20:29:04 - 00:20:56:19
Orly
But I also don't think that that's what I want to be. So, am I mad about the fires? I think that I'm maybe more upset about how I've handled all of the challenges. I know I couldn't have predicted what happened, but I think that it changed the path I was on. Yeah. And I'm not thrilled about that.
00:20:56:21 - 00:21:01:14
Leslie
Yeah. How so. Did it change it.
00:21:01:16 - 00:21:28:09
Orly
Well I spent the last seven months living in seven different houses. 13 houses overall. I made a lot of friends. I got to see a lot of incredible community. But so much of my life was focused on rebuilding stable living. Yeah. Instead of. Yeah, I declared on January 1st. I want to do a Ted talk.
00:21:28:09 - 00:21:38:12
Orly
By the end of the year, I had a whole plan of doing a bunch of speeches. And then, seven days later, I'm sleeping in my friend's couch trying to figure out where I'm going to live.
00:21:38:12 - 00:21:39:14
Leslie
Yeah.
00:21:39:16 - 00:21:53:13
Orly
And there were just some more complications that took me in a lot of different directions and still trying to find my grounding. Absolutely. We talked about at some point.
00:21:53:14 - 00:22:09:03
Leslie
Yes, I do want to talk about that a little bit more, but do I have this right based on something you just said, that you blame yourself in part for this? Not totally not for the fire, but like, for the way that you have, like, coped with it or.
00:22:09:05 - 00:22:16:12
Orly
Yes. It's easy to do that when you.
00:22:16:14 - 00:22:38:11
Orly
I don't know. I struggle with emotions sometimes. I think the reason I got into this thing in the first place, because I had to learn how to listen to myself and do the most healthy things for me. And sometimes I, don't do the best activities that would help me move forward, in getting speeches. And there's been a couple of challenging months for me.
00:22:38:11 - 00:23:09:17
Orly
So I have been I moved in my house, and just adjusting to this new house and new living situation has been. Yeah, challenging. And I haven't wanted to, like, create my space, make myself comfortable. So I've been living in an uncomfortable situation because I feel like I'm still temporary. Wherever I am. And so I'm upset that I haven't figured out how to get my routine to move in a specific direction, rather than, okay, I'm still here, but where am I?
00:23:09:19 - 00:23:10:23
Orly
Can I go?
00:23:11:01 - 00:23:40:01
Leslie
Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot where you're concerned lately, in the sense that it's kind of amazing to think that you experienced this massive trauma in January, which the acute nature of the actual fire and losing your house, but you haven't, like the trauma is not done having its way with you because you're still sort of displaced and haven't found, you know, your forever home.
00:23:40:01 - 00:23:48:10
Leslie
Not to make you sound like a shelter dog, but it's like you're you're still in this limbo that was created by the fire.
00:23:48:10 - 00:24:06:15
Orly
I feel like the first six months of bouncing around was actually more comfortable because I was like, okay, I got to find a new place to live, got to do this, got to set up this. And then I landed in the place I'm in. And I was like, whoa, is this it? Are we cool now? And so I'm.
00:24:06:17 - 00:24:08:08
Leslie
Still trying to figure that out. Yeah, yeah.
00:24:08:08 - 00:24:09:17
Orly
Still trying to figure everything out.
00:24:09:18 - 00:24:21:08
Leslie
It is incredibly, incredibly hard to feel and to be productive when your base isn't stable.
00:24:21:10 - 00:24:44:00
Orly
Right? This has the Maslow's Hierarchy of needs 100%, where I'm trying to help people with their communication skills and and do creative expression. But I'm also not, you know, food and shelter or kind of they're they've always been, but they don't feel as real as they've felt up until now. Yeah.
00:24:44:00 - 00:24:49:06
Leslie
It's hard to self-actualize professionally when you're living situation is in limbo.
00:24:49:08 - 00:25:03:19
Orly
But people have done it. And because people have done it, I'm like, why am I do doing not doing it? But I've got one step at a time. But enough about my own personal struggles. Let's talk about how people can benefit.
00:25:03:20 - 00:25:28:06
Leslie
Well, let's. But I just want to say something really quickly because I can't I can't let this go. Well, you know, it's a it's a really tricky thing. It's so interesting. You know, I'm I'm your friend and I'm not your therapist. And so it's not it's not my job to kind of help you unpack this, but I do my wish for you is that you will work on the self-flagellation piece, because I think the extent to which you're blaming yourself for anything right now is a lot of wasted energy.
00:25:28:10 - 00:25:29:23
Leslie
Oh, I like that.
00:25:30:01 - 00:25:32:03
Orly
There's waste.
00:25:32:05 - 00:25:41:11
Leslie
It is. You don't have to respond to that. We can kind of keep it moving, but I just I just wanted to kind of. Thank. You got out there.
00:25:41:13 - 00:25:45:10
Orly
Got to read. You got to have someone else to redirect the energy. And then I'll be golden.
00:25:45:12 - 00:26:08:10
Leslie
Exactly. Well, so something I would love to hear you talk more about, because I think it's a really messed up piece of all of this. So. And it's a place where things connect. So here you are doing all of this work in the world, you know, to work towards solving the loneliness epidemic, which is a very real thing in the United States.
00:26:08:12 - 00:26:31:04
Leslie
There's a very direct there are some dots I want to connect for people before I even ask you a question about this, but I think a lot of people would be surprised to really fully understand just how much the loneliness epidemic, as we call it in the United States, plays a role in things like school shootings and that kind of stuff.
00:26:31:06 - 00:26:55:00
Leslie
You know, we've got this because, you know something you and I have talked about before is just the collapse on nuance, right? That there is in our world, so much nuance gets lost in the discourse. And I think one incredible example of where nuance gets lost is the sort of like mental health versus guns debate when it comes to another epidemic, which is the epidemic of school shootings and that kind of thing.
00:26:55:02 - 00:27:17:09
Leslie
And, you know, guns are a serious issue in the United States, but school shootings are not carried out by mentally healthy people. Even if you look at the data, most people are traumatized. You know, 80% we see are like in crisis leading up to the time of their school shooting. Whatever the whatever the nature of the shooting is public event.
00:27:17:11 - 00:27:44:17
Leslie
So here you are doing this incredible work, trying to kind of like, chip away at this enormous problem that we're facing as a nation. And lo and behold, we find out just what, a couple of days ago or a week ago that the fires were deliberate arson that was carried out by a 29 year old young man, not much younger than you.
00:27:44:18 - 00:28:00:16
Leslie
And I wonder just if you can speak a little bit to what it does in your mind to have to grapple with having been personally victimized by the very thing that you have been working in the world to solve?
00:28:00:18 - 00:28:09:16
Orly
Oh, that's a good way to put it. You know, I never been victimized by someone doing crimes recently or ever.
00:28:09:18 - 00:28:12:16
Leslie
It's hard to say what you think about this is a crime, but it was.
00:28:12:16 - 00:28:13:18
Orly
Oh so crime.
00:28:13:20 - 00:28:15:08
Leslie
Major crime. Yeah.
00:28:15:10 - 00:28:31:00
Orly
This is a big time crime. This is, this is it. If you are a criminal and you want to do as much damage to a area as possible, this guy pulled it off. He's the Guinness Book of Records. Yeah. I have destroyed the most stuff.
00:28:31:01 - 00:28:32:19
Leslie
Yeah.
00:28:32:21 - 00:28:35:20
Orly
Not exactly a badge of honor, but certainly a record.
00:28:36:00 - 00:28:38:02
Leslie
Yes.
00:28:38:04 - 00:29:02:12
Orly
How does it feel to be victimized by a chump who's definitely misunderstood and. This is what I look at. The story as I've heard it is he dropped off some people because he was an Uber driver. He called his friend friend in pick up lights. City on fire. Wow.
00:29:02:14 - 00:29:05:13
Leslie
It's right there. Yeah, it's right there.
00:29:05:15 - 00:29:11:19
Orly
One person could have said, dude, just come over or, like, what's up?
00:29:11:21 - 00:29:12:13
Leslie
Yeah.
00:29:12:15 - 00:29:20:06
Orly
Oh. I'm chillin. How about you? I just think about burning the city down.
00:29:20:08 - 00:29:27:21
Leslie
You want to talk about it. I mean it's right there. It's it's so painfully obvious.
00:29:27:23 - 00:29:38:12
Orly
There was a missed call. Yeah. And that could have been the difference. Yeah. And I know there's a lot of stories like that. Missed call. Could've been a difference.
00:29:38:14 - 00:30:04:12
Leslie
It kind of makes me wonder what your insights are about this as a man and as a man your age. Because it feels like, you know, there's just this enormous problem that I think really, no one knows how to solve, which was the problem of, like, young male loneliness and anger and like what, what, if anything, have you learned from the work that you've done?
00:30:04:14 - 00:30:12:04
Leslie
Like, why do you suppose men are struggling even to create friendships with each other?
00:30:12:06 - 00:30:32:12
Orly
Men sometimes get afraid to be cranky because cringing guys are lame guys. Unless you are a crazy guy and your friends are lame guys, then you're actually not friends. You all, and you're just creative and fun. But it depends like the scope.
00:30:32:12 - 00:30:36:05
Leslie
Of who is kind of on a razor's edge, right? Right. Yeah.
00:30:36:06 - 00:30:48:08
Orly
And so I think that most people totally generalize. I don't have a lot of research to prove this, but anyone with a hobby and people that does hobby with seems pretty good.
00:30:48:10 - 00:30:49:20
Leslie
Yeah.
00:30:49:22 - 00:31:11:16
Orly
Now, I love the 27 guys I play ultimate Frisbee with. Love them to death. I've been playing ultimate Frisbee with the same group of 27 people, give or take a couple for 15 years, every Sunday. I only stopped because the fires. I would call these guys my friends during the fires. Everyone's like, what can I do to help?
00:31:11:16 - 00:31:43:00
Orly
But I've been to zero. Sorry. I've been to one of their houses. Yeah. Maybe two. There is this thing that I've heard recently that says it just cause you're about. And hanging out with a bunch of people doesn't necessarily mean you're friends with them or community with them. And I think that sometimes because guys are machismo to some degree, there's not that level of, hey, just say, you know, call me if you need anything.
00:31:43:01 - 00:31:58:01
Orly
Yeah. I see you a lot or friends, but that extra level of, hey, if you need any help, you're safe. Come over. I got one of those texts from one of the first guys. Hey, I got a bunch of clothes. I'm going to keep it hung on to you. And so.
00:31:58:01 - 00:32:14:23
Leslie
It's. I was just about to ask about that sort of what it was like for you. You know, it's not that I have no insight into this because I know you, but I would love to hear you speak to this a little bit about what it was like for you to go from doing the work that you were doing with the listening table, to suddenly being the person.
00:32:15:01 - 00:32:35:22
Orly
Who needed it? Yeah, it was awesome. It was really rad. And nothing against my friends. You guys. I mean, they're my. I love them all. I really want just to illustrate the point that you can see people a lot. Yes. And not be hangout buddies. Yeah I think a lot of guys go out and do things but don't be you know, okay.
00:32:36:00 - 00:32:42:12
Leslie
They can hang out and sort of do an activity and not actually really be talking about how anybody is feeling or doing at all.
00:32:42:12 - 00:32:51:16
Orly
And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. There's the data that says, you know, the average American has four or less close friends.
00:32:51:19 - 00:32:52:20
Leslie
00:32:52:22 - 00:32:57:09
Orly
And I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that number.
00:32:57:10 - 00:33:11:13
Leslie
Well, I also don't think there's anything inherently wrong with guys getting together and participating in an activity and not having deep, meaningful conversations because at least if they're doing that and they have friends, they're not shooting up schools. Yeah. They're committing.
00:33:11:13 - 00:33:12:03
Orly
Right. That's what.
00:33:12:03 - 00:33:31:05
Leslie
Makes arson. You know, like it's I think at least, you know, I know lots of guys that are like this. You know, guys are kind of get together and watch the game, but like don't really talk about anything meaningful. And at least they're doing something productive with their time. Yeah. But so will you say a little bit more about what it was like for you to suddenly be the best?
00:33:31:06 - 00:33:57:23
Orly
It was so awesome to feel the amount of love that I got. I mean, my phone didn't stop ringing buzzing for like a week. Yeah, I probably had 900 missed texts. I had a ton of calls. It didn't hurt that I was on international news constantly. So someone's. I just saw you on the news. Argentina. Oh my God, I saw you on the news in Saudi Arabia.
00:33:58:01 - 00:34:23:01
Orly
Yeah. Whoa. I also have some social media followers, so I got a lot of messages. But it was the people who wrote me a message and said, hey, sorry your house burned down. So sorry. What can I do to help? And then the people who, 3 or 4 days later, followed up because I didn't respond to anybody and they said, hey, just checking in on you.
00:34:23:03 - 00:34:30:18
Orly
Yeah, I'm sure you're going through a lot. And those the double texters. Oh my God, I love them so much. You know.
00:34:30:20 - 00:34:34:03
Leslie
The people. Yeah. The people that didn't give up just because to show back from you.
00:34:34:08 - 00:34:53:22
Orly
I think that's the, the thing that I always try and do for my friends, if I'm fortunate enough to know someone struggling is I'm like, okay, you've told me you're struggling with depression. You've told me you're struggling, suicidal. You've told me you're struggling with drugs. I'm going to call you every 3 or 4 days or every other week or something like that.
00:34:53:22 - 00:35:18:15
Orly
And even if you don't pick up, I'll leave a message and say, hey, I'm going to call you back. I think that there is this feeling of non people want to be part of a community. You join a community, you leave a community. Friendships. You want to feel like they go wherever you are. And I think those type of friendships are rare.
00:35:18:17 - 00:35:32:23
Orly
If you're in school, you feel lonely, you leave the school, you don't talk to anyone anymore. Fine. If you're in a club or a community, you leave the community or club. You don't talk to anyone anymore. And so that the ability to move somewhere and lose all these connections is really scary.
00:35:33:04 - 00:35:34:13
Leslie
00:35:34:15 - 00:35:40:12
Orly
And there is something really meaningful about having consistency.
00:35:40:14 - 00:35:59:17
Leslie
It's interesting you were using the word cringe before, and it's sort of interesting to just sub that out for the word vulnerable bowl. And I'm thinking about how I think, partially as a result of all the work that you've done, you felt more comfortable being vulnerable with your friends, I imagine. Right. Do you think that's true?
00:35:59:19 - 00:36:00:16
Orly
Unclear.
00:36:00:18 - 00:36:01:08
Leslie
Okay.
00:36:01:10 - 00:36:22:02
Orly
I'm a big complainer. You've heard me talk in private. I love to complain. I also despise complaining because I think it's so easy to say positive things about the situation. Yeah, and so I think it's really fun to be like, oh, I'm pissed about this. This sucks. That's energy. That's enjoyable. It's hard to be like, this is awesome.
00:36:22:04 - 00:36:37:02
Leslie
That's that's an important distinction to make. I hear you. I mean, even if I remember what it was like for you, when I was in touch with you in the wake of everything that happened, I think that there was a part of you that felt the need to be kind of upbeat at the time, and we could be thinking that as sort of like not being vulnerable.
00:36:37:04 - 00:36:53:06
Leslie
But I guess I'm thinking about the part of you that did take people up on, you know, the way in which they reached out to you. And it's sort of interesting to think that there was a period of time there where you needed so much because you didn't just need an ear, you didn't even have any clothing. Right?
00:36:53:08 - 00:37:09:02
Leslie
So it's like it's just sort of interesting to kind of I think I'll go out on a limb and you can tell me if I'm on to anything here, but it's almost like even if you had a hard time accessing feelings of vulnerability inside yourself, you just were in a vulnerable state.
00:37:09:05 - 00:37:15:01
Orly
Yeah, I was, and I thought it was nice that I didn't have to go and tell anybody, and they just knew because I was on the news and I was like, hey.
00:37:15:04 - 00:37:17:21
Leslie
I didn't have to open up about it. You didn't? Yeah. You yeah.
00:37:18:02 - 00:37:37:08
Orly
You lost your stuff. But I even posted online, I got like a million, a couple million views of how to talk to people that lost their homes because people didn't want to hear the same. And I still hear it every day. Oh, you lost your house. So sorry. That's terrible. I'm like, yeah, but it's okay.
00:37:37:10 - 00:37:38:11
Leslie
It's fine.
00:37:38:13 - 00:37:49:11
Orly
And I don't have any problem. If people say, I'm sorry, it's a natural reaction. I would say to, maybe I'd be like, that's. But when I see when I see people and they go, you lost your house. So I go, that's sick.
00:37:49:13 - 00:37:55:09
Leslie
That's awesome. Me too. It's a surprise. But the, people aren't the people.
00:37:55:09 - 00:38:01:11
Orly
Who are out and about. They're not like, mourning constantly. You don't want to run into someone, say something about yourself and then have them get sad.
00:38:01:12 - 00:38:07:15
Leslie
Well, so let me ask you a question. So. So there's a specific question I want to ask you, and I'm gonna tell you afterwards why I'm asking it.
00:38:07:16 - 00:38:07:23
Orly
Okay.
00:38:08:05 - 00:38:16:16
Leslie
But I think it's a good question to ask someone who's been through what you've been through. What is the worst thing about losing your home in a fire?
00:38:16:18 - 00:38:34:20
Orly
The worst thing about losing my home in a fire is a bunch of people reached out wanting to help me, and I said, that'd be great. And then I didn't tell them how they could help me. And I feel like I took on responsibility to like, coordinate things. And I was like, I don't have the capability of actually doing this right now.
00:38:34:22 - 00:38:42:00
Orly
And then I felt guilty that I tried to do something I didn't. The worst part of losing my house in the fire.
00:38:42:02 - 00:38:44:04
Leslie
The stuff on our campus. Yeah. I mean.
00:38:44:04 - 00:39:07:04
Orly
I was so relieved constantly to be like, oh, I actually didn't need any of that. Some stuff is inconvenient to lose. And there was a moment where there was a moment I was at a friend's birthday party. His parents had flown in and made a slideshow of photos of him from zero to age 30, and they played. It was like ten minutes of music and photos and photos.
00:39:07:04 - 00:39:35:11
Orly
And I went, oh yeah, I don't have any childhood pictures anymore. That was kind of annoying. And I felt sad. But I also was like, that's fine. I'm blessed that my past can be a mystery. The last generation of people that don't have photos taken them since they're a baby until they're dead. Cos Facebook.
00:39:35:13 - 00:39:54:14
Leslie
It feels to me like one of the things that a lot of people really misunderstand about losing your house in a fire is it's interesting. I think there's a lot of energy around the material belongings, and it feels to me like what people misunderstand is that for most people, it's not about the loss of physical belongings outside of things like photographs.
00:39:54:16 - 00:40:11:11
Leslie
It has more to do with the fact that as humans, like, we're den animals, like if you wake up in the morning and then at some point during the day, you find out that you can't go sleep in your own bed, that night, right? You know? Yeah. Like that's really disorienting.
00:40:11:13 - 00:40:38:11
Orly
Yeah. And also, I'm really sad that the community is really sad. Yeah. You know, all the people are constantly still stressed doing the best they can, but just a huge amount of people struggling that want to be struggling less. Yeah. And it feels like so many people I know are displaced trying to figure out where they're going to move, to try to figure out what they do for fun, trying to replace certain things.
00:40:38:11 - 00:40:43:20
Orly
You know, my dad got a bike stoked.
00:40:43:22 - 00:41:05:06
Orly
But it is constantly getting to reinvent what life looks like. And a lot of people were further in life than me, so they were like, my plan was to die in this house, and now they're, well, now my plan just to die, I guess. Not sure how that's gonna play out.
00:41:05:08 - 00:41:28:07
Leslie
Yeah. So as someone who has his finger on the pulse of this, you know, it's it's amazing to think that, there in, like, in the immediate aftermath of the fire, there was a mobilization for people to donate money and resources. And obviously there was craziness with, like, the clothing, you know, it's like, yeah, everybody in their country was like mailing clothing to Los Angeles.
00:41:28:09 - 00:41:46:10
Leslie
But then a moment like that passes and life moves on. And do you have a sense of like, if somebody is watching this and they want to do something to help all of the people that have been displaced by this, what do you suppose is the best thing for everybody?
00:41:46:12 - 00:41:59:08
Orly
But if you know somebody, call them and invite them over for dinner. Yeah, that's I think the best thing you could do is let someone know you're there for them and let them know they have a house that's comfortable they can hang out in for a couple hours.
00:41:59:10 - 00:42:12:16
Leslie
Yeah, and we could even extrapolate that outwards and just say, if you know someone who's struggling with anything, make an effort to be there for them, invite them over for dinner, be an ear, listen right.
00:42:12:18 - 00:42:18:18
Orly
And if they start getting fat tell them and then offer to go to the gym with them.
00:42:18:20 - 00:42:21:09
Leslie
Because that's important. I have a weird non-sequitur.
00:42:21:09 - 00:42:33:17
Orly
Sorry. I got invited to a lot of dinners because I asked and then I gained all this weight and I was like, wow. I took people up on their generosity, but I forgot I was constantly shoveling.
00:42:33:20 - 00:42:47:00
Leslie
I just thought that you were, like, really making good. On your desire to get canceled by suddenly getting super fatphobic on my podcast now. Oh. I will not stand for the anti fat sentiment or you.
00:42:47:05 - 00:42:53:05
Orly
Know, I'm personally I struggle with eating a lot, so.
00:42:53:07 - 00:43:00:18
Leslie
I think you're fine. I think you're fine. You know, later, later, you and I are going to do battle with your inner critic.
00:43:00:20 - 00:43:05:00
Orly
That's a that's a podcast. Yeah. Battle with your inner critic.
00:43:05:02 - 00:43:22:12
Leslie
So I guess I'm going to ask you this, and then you're going to tell us if there's anything else you want to talk to us about today, but, you know, based on everything that you learned from starting the listening table and running that for all those years. And, you know, we never did get through the principles of active listening.
00:43:22:12 - 00:43:24:10
Leslie
Let's do you what would you like to.
00:43:24:12 - 00:43:30:08
Orly
Well, I think that's important for someone who's listening to this podcast to come away with the message that I think is really important.
00:43:30:08 - 00:43:31:06
Leslie
Yeah, let's do that.
00:43:31:09 - 00:43:50:17
Orly
Which is there's an immediate reaction people will have when they're confronted with information that doesn't agree with them. Right. This is someone has done something that they feel guilty about. Someone has done something that makes them feel uncomfortable. Someone has been part of a situation that's wrong. This is when you're sharing something with someone who's a good listener.
00:43:50:18 - 00:44:02:12
Orly
If you're trying to be a better listener, you're going to put yourself in situations where it open up to me, tell me about something that's vulnerable. Oh, somebody hurt me and I'm still dealing with it. Well screw them.
00:44:02:14 - 00:44:06:01
Leslie
We're going to, we're going to hate this guy together.
00:44:06:03 - 00:44:30:19
Orly
And the act of conscious listener, the regenerative listener is going to be able to say, we're not going to jump to the first thing I think is going to fix the problem. First, I'm going to let them talk about what it is. Oh my God, you're feeling hurt. Oh my God, you're feeling betrayed. Oh, that feels miserable. Instead of saying we're going to fix it.
00:44:30:20 - 00:44:31:18
Leslie
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:31:23 - 00:45:05:18
Orly
Oh, you've shared with me I've got enough information from you to know what your problem is. So now I'm getting angry, motivated to make a change. And what I think a good, active, conscious, regenerative listener is able to without losing the share of the vulnerability, the momentum to say, oh my God, that was hard for me to hear because I care about you and you being hurt sucks for me.
00:45:05:20 - 00:45:14:08
Orly
Like as a listener, I'm getting activated holding that and saying, okay, what else? What else is there?
00:45:14:10 - 00:45:15:04
Leslie
00:45:15:06 - 00:45:24:18
Orly
Because you may realize it's not. Let's just do something to forget about it or let's fix this one thing.
00:45:24:20 - 00:45:54:20
Leslie
It is interesting how that impulse to try to fix things can really ruin the whole experience of listening and, feeling heard. Yeah, in the sense that. So one of the things that I often think about in my own line of work is that you got to understand a problem really well before you can even begin to try to fix it.
00:45:54:22 - 00:46:18:20
Leslie
And I think a lot of people don't ask high quality follow up questions because they get immediately into fixer mode. And it's amazing how, as the person who's sharing it feels so alienating and you get the exact opposite, you have the good feelings that you get out of feeling heard. Because not only is someone sort of trying to solve the problem, but they don't have enough information.
00:46:19:01 - 00:46:39:11
Leslie
It's funny how it can be sort of insulting, right? Because it's like, what is if the person can't figure out how to solve their problems themselves, like it's the it's just it is sort of antithetical to actually feeling connected to somebody. Yeah. When they try to immediately fix it. Right. Without asking like 8 million follow up questions.
00:46:39:12 - 00:46:50:12
Orly
Right. And sometimes people know what you need to do and there's could tell you to do it. And you know what you need to do. And you don't need to hear them tell you what to do. You just want someone to acknowledge.
00:46:50:14 - 00:46:52:01
Leslie
00:46:52:03 - 00:47:13:07
Orly
That hey how can I help you get this done. I'm going to help you with this. I called a friend earlier today. He called me, and I told him I wasn't having a the best couple of weeks. He hadn't heard from me, and he's like to drink over dinner tonight. And I said yes, but I'm not going to, because I have plans.
00:47:13:09 - 00:47:27:15
Orly
But I'd love to come over another day. Great. Let's do it. I'll call you like, that's. That's why he didn't say, like, what are you doing, man? You got to do something different. He said, I, I've been in exactly your situation. Come on by. Good friend.
00:47:27:17 - 00:47:47:06
Leslie
Very good friend. So I guess my last question for you is if you were to if you were to give everybody one takeaway, either from the conversation that we're having or all of the work that you've done, training in listening and communication, what's the one thing you would want people to take away?
00:47:47:08 - 00:47:50:08
Orly
Learn the rules and then break them, right.
00:47:50:11 - 00:47:52:14
Leslie
Learn active.
00:47:52:17 - 00:47:58:22
Orly
Conscious, regenerative, whatever kind of listening you want. Study for a little bit a couple weeks.
00:47:59:02 - 00:47:59:22
Leslie
00:48:00:00 - 00:48:19:13
Orly
Do some of the things that are weird and uncomfortable, sitting with formulaic questions and going through the things and seeing how they go. And then if you find yourself surprised, you'll be like, wow, I can incorporate that into my life. And if you think that was weird and lame, you try these conversations that go deep. They don't have to take hours.
00:48:19:13 - 00:48:36:22
Orly
They can take nine minutes. That's how long we had in the prisons to build trust. If you need help finding any modules, then go to Orly israel.com and put your email list in the box and I'll send you some.
00:48:37:01 - 00:49:00:04
Leslie
Exactly. I love that and I lied. I want to ask you one more question. It feels to me like part of what we're talking about has to do with like managing the uncomfortable, uncomfortable feelings that come up inside yourself. If somebody tells you something that makes you feel uncomfortable, and what do you have to say to that? If someone opens up, someone's listened to this and they're like, I'm going to be a better listener.
00:49:00:04 - 00:49:03:21
Leslie
And then they go out and they try and someone says something that makes them feel uncomfortable.
00:49:03:23 - 00:49:08:09
Orly
There was a woman who came up to me at the listening table with her partner.
00:49:08:11 - 00:49:09:00
Leslie
00:49:09:02 - 00:49:18:12
Orly
And she said, this guy's a bad listener. He could use this table. And he said, what are you talking about? I'm a doctor. I'm a great.
00:49:18:12 - 00:49:19:15
Leslie
Listener.
00:49:19:17 - 00:49:41:21
Orly
I listen and then I fix it and she goes, yeah. And I'm like, I want to tell him these things. He doesn't mean listening. But I was activated in this moment, and I let it go because I thought, I'm not here to lecture a guy. I'm here to just listen.
00:49:41:21 - 00:49:48:23
Leslie
Right. Not not here to manage that woman's future divorce. Right? Sure.
00:49:49:01 - 00:50:08:11
Orly
Knowing why you're in a conversation is meaningful. If you're here to support, you're here to support. If you're here to change, you know, if you're here to argue with somebody. I changed my mind style, then. I mean, there's so many situations where people ruin conversations so they don't know what role they want to have in it.
00:50:08:13 - 00:50:12:05
Leslie
Oh, say a little bit more about that. That's fascinating.
00:50:12:07 - 00:50:39:13
Orly
If you want to be a listener for somebody, you have to consciously choose to be there to support them. And I like to say this, which I think people only get two thirds of, where if someone's sharing something with you, you can say. Do you want to talk more about it? Do you want to not talk about it, or do you want to maybe talk about it, but decide later on?
00:50:39:13 - 00:50:55:00
Orly
I ask you again and giving the third option, right. Because did you say like, let's talk about it or not? The giving the third option, say still on the table like you're in control. I'm here to support. I think a lot of people miss that.
00:50:55:01 - 00:51:04:02
Leslie
Oh. Okay. All right. Thank you. Are there any questions that I haven't asked you that you're dying to answer? What? What are we maybe not hitting on?
00:51:04:04 - 00:51:07:23
Orly
I have a lot of fascinating stories from the table that I'll tell one day.
00:51:08:00 - 00:51:09:19
Leslie
But not today.
00:51:09:21 - 00:51:27:10
Orly
I think that there's a lot of waste. Right? Not today. But you can be surprised if you just sit there and, like, look at somebody and do the act of listening thing, and eventually people will. There's so many stories I have someone not willing to share, but sitting down. So they wanted to share, and then you just wait.
00:51:27:13 - 00:51:28:08
Orly
00:51:28:10 - 00:51:29:14
Leslie
They would sit down and then they would.
00:51:29:18 - 00:51:45:20
Orly
They sit down and they kind of kind of talk about whatever. And then, you know, you just give them the the stare, the nod. You know, you go with what they're saying, but you say, look, what are you, what are you here to talk about. Yeah. And they go, oh, I told my friend something. I'm really regretting it.
00:51:45:22 - 00:52:07:17
Orly
Or I made a mistake or I'm really struggling with something. But sometimes the people show up in the place and you don't recognize the signal that they want to share. They want to talk about something deeper. The beauty of the listening table is people only sit down if they want to talk about something. Yeah, in real life, it's way harder to notice.
00:52:07:22 - 00:52:39:22
Leslie
Well, you know, what's really interesting is that it is pretty common, actually. Yeah, that people will go to therapy and not talk at all. Yeah, sometimes. And there is a very complex tension going on there because they're showing up because they want help. But something creates a barrier around being able to access it. And this might sound crazy, but I think you'll appreciate hearing this just for any future listening tables you ever do.
00:52:39:22 - 00:53:23:12
Leslie
Or should this ever come up. It took me a long time to learn. There's this like a brief story that I want to tell, but it is okay to just sit in silence with someone. Like, I think a lot of people really underestimate that. Like the sort of power of being a presence, sitting in silence. And I remember very, very early on in my training career, I was still in grad school, but I was at an internship, a practicum placement site, and I was working with high school students, and there was a girl that would show up every week for a full 15 minute long therapy session, and she would sit there in total silence.
00:53:23:13 - 00:53:45:20
Leslie
And, you know, I was like in my late 20s at the time, I had no idea how to handle it, and it was a supervisor that had to help me just to sort of know that, like, it's okay to just sit there and be there with her and I, for whatever this is worth, I think it's possible that she might have been going through something that she didn't feel comfortable telling me, like it's one of those things where she knew the terms and limits of confidentiality.
00:53:46:00 - 00:54:08:10
Leslie
And if she were to tell me, for example, that somebody was abusing her, I would have to alert the authorities. So she didn't want to tell me the thing that would trigger that. And I sat there in silence with her. So interesting reading. Like choked up remembering it. But, for like, the entire school year. No, I yeah, it's wild, right?
00:54:08:12 - 00:54:10:00
Orly
It is wild.
00:54:10:01 - 00:54:10:18
Leslie
So.
00:54:10:20 - 00:54:15:00
Orly
And she showed up on purpose. Like it wasn't like she was assigned to do it. She just came.
00:54:15:05 - 00:54:44:14
Leslie
It was completely voluntary for her, for her to show up. I think that she just, for whatever reason, couldn't make use of the space. And that happens, you know, like these days I've never I have not since Experian and something quite that dramatic. But I have, as a therapist had the experience with people having people show up that, don't seem like they have a lot to talk about, and it's not because they don't have a lot to talk about, it's because they don't really know how to, like, make use of the space.
00:54:44:16 - 00:54:46:07
Orly
Therapy's got a tough job.
00:54:46:09 - 00:54:46:22
Leslie
It is.
00:54:46:22 - 00:54:54:14
Orly
People want things to be fixed, and it's probably not a therapist's ability to fix them. It's the person's.
00:54:54:17 - 00:55:30:06
Leslie
No, no. But I do think that if you're ever going to work to solve a problem, because I will, I will say this, that, you know, when you're in kind of, when you're in therapy, it's not like there is never any problem solving going on. It's just that in my experience, like I have to understand the problem really well before I'm going to, yeah, offer a potential solution or wonder with the person why they're not already doing the thing that like, maybe they even already know they should be doing, like, you know, you can kind of get into that territory.
00:55:30:07 - 00:55:49:05
Leslie
But I think that you have a tremendous amount of wisdom to bring to the world because so many people are dealing with really kind of empower crushed relationships. But it's interesting to think that we haven't even talked about the role that technology plays in all of this. Because, you know, I know you have it right on your website.
00:55:49:05 - 00:56:08:18
Leslie
Our phones are listening to us better than we are, but I think that a lot of people are feeling really lonely because they're isolated. They're scrolling on their phones, they're not talking to people, they're not having real conversation. And so I just like, you know, thank you for the work that you do and the message that you're bringing to the world.
00:56:08:20 - 00:56:10:22
Leslie
And thank you for having this conversation with me.
00:56:10:23 - 00:56:13:12
Orly
The pleasure's mine.
00:56:13:14 - 00:56:32:08
Leslie
You've been watching him or listening to The Nature of Nurture with me. Doctor Leslie Carr, and I want to thank you for joining us. You can find Orly at Orly israel.com. That link is in the show notes. And you can find me at the Nature of nurture.com. Many thanks to Orly for having this conversation with me. This episode was produced by me and Bree Corey.
00:56:32:13 - 00:56:52:09
Leslie
Thanks to Bree, Rick, Barry, Odell and everyone at SLAPP Studios, LA for bringing this project to life. If you found this conversation valuable, please let me know by leaving a review or rating, or by sharing this episode with at least one person who you think might enjoy it, too. You can also like or subscribe on YouTube or in any podcast app that you can get your hands on.
00:56:52:11 - 00:56:55:13
Leslie
Thank you again for tuning in. I'll see you next time.