Leslie sits down with British filmmaker Liz Smith to talk about two of her documentaries which focus on the role that the internet is playing in our changing world. They begin by talking about I Am Gen Z (now available on Amazon Prime), and how social media has impacted this generation of people that have never lived without it. They continue with the next film that’s in development called The Deadline, which will explore how social media is creating a politically polarized society, and the impact that will have on our ability to solve big problems like climate change. Links Mentioned in this Episode: - Liz’s website: https://liz-smith.com/ - I Am Gen Z on Amazon Prime in the US: https://www.amazon.com/I-Am-Gen-Jamie-Bartlett/dp/B0B6T22PS6/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2V6WZV6MJCG7Z&keywords=i+am+gen+z&qid=1676377092&sprefix=i+am+gen+z,aps,156&sr=8-1 - How to see I Am Gen Z outside of the US: https://iamgenzfilm.com/screenings/ - To learn more about The Deadline and how to support the film: https://thedeadlinefilm.org/ - The Nature of Nurture is produced by Amanda Mayo at Cassiopeia Studio
Leslie sits down with British filmmaker Liz Smith to talk about two of her documentaries which focus on the role that the internet is playing in our changing world. They begin by talking about I Am Gen Z (now available on Amazon Prime), and how social media has impacted this generation of people that have never lived without it. They continue with the next film that’s in development called The Deadline, which will explore how social media is creating a politically polarized society, and the impact that will have on our ability to solve big problems like climate change.
Links Mentioned in this Episode:
You're listening to the fifth episode of the Third Season of The Nature of Nurture, the podcast for your mental health. I'm your host, Dr. Leslie Carr, and today's episode is a super fun one for me. Today I'm introducing you to the British filmmaker and all around incredible human, Liz Smith. I'm gonna start by telling you how Liz and I met and how we got to know one another because pretty much everything you need to know about today's episode will be explained that way.
One of my primary areas of expertise as a psychologist is tech addiction. And back in 2019 through a small chain of interlocking mutual friends, I was connected to Liz because she was making a documentary film about how the internet is changing our brains and our culture and how those issues are especially impacting the generations of people younger than me or her.
She interviewed me for it and that film is now finished. It's called I Am Gen Z, and any day now, as of this recording, it should be available for streaming online. So by the time you hear this, it most likely will be available. If you wanna check it out, you can find more information at IamGenZfilm.com, and I highly recommend that you do.
I think it's fantastic and I'm super proud to have been a part of it. But here's where the plot thickens a little. Back when I first met Liz in 2019 and she interviewed me for the film, I also met the film's producer, Chantelle De Carvalho, and I just hit it off with both of them really fabulously. Liz has a passion for making documentaries about mental health, so we obviously have that interest in common, but on a personal level as well, I just really liked Liz and Chantel both.
So in November of 2021, they surprised me by asking if I would get more involved in their next project, and they offered me a role as an executive producer. I couldn't have been more thrilled to say yes. This new film was called The Deadline. I'll tell you more about it in a minute. And the three of us are working closely together on that project, along with another executive producer named Brian Selman, who is also an incredible human.
I feel very grateful to be a part of this and to work with them. So the deadline picks up where I am, gen Z leaves off, and it explores the ways in which the internet is impacting not just our minds and our culture, but also our political systems, and how the internet is driving political polarization and the rise of fascism around the globe.
It's exploring those issues through the prism of climate change and climate migration. And it's asking a big and difficult question, which is how or whether we will ever be able to solve such large existential issues if we can't see eye to eye on even the most basic of things these days. So in today's conversation, we're gonna talk about all of this, and we're gonna talk about how all of these things fit together.
I'm really excited to share this part of my life with you. I feel very grateful that my career enables me to get to work on creative projects like this podcast and this film project, and I'm very grateful that that path has brought me to Liz.
I was thinking about starting with you today in the same place that every single interviewer starts, Liz, that you and I know so well from all of the q and as that we've done, which is, how did you first have the, I can't but laugh. How did you first have the idea to make what became I am Gen Z?
I'm sorry. So the, the reason we're laughing is, uh, we've done so many q and as together now, and uh, this same question comes up every time .
And, oh, I could answer it for you, but I figure for other people's benefit.
You could, and I, I'm always worried that you, you guys must be so bored of hearing that same story at time and time again.
Actually, yeah.
I might, I might have to make a new one up. Just, um,
Yeah. No, the, uh, the reason I made it, it started from that moment that I think we've all had where you go, oh my God, I'm, I'm addicted to this thing.
Yeah.
And, and why? But, uh, beyond that, I had my own experience back in the late nineties when I joined a little Silicon Valley startup, which, uh, was called Yahoo.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, we all know, or the older generations will know the, the story of Yahoo. And I was very, very lucky to be part of that early team that sort of launched it, certainly into Europe. And, uh, got to experience, uh, that the beginnings of that dot com boom. And it was a really exciting time. There were a lot of incredibly interesting people who I was working with, a lot of misfits there.
And, uh, but the, the thing was everybody thought they were sort of making something really quite revolutionary, democratizing for something that was really, you know, gonna change the world and, and in a positive way.
I moved on from that world, uh, in sort of 2002 and I went to film school, so I've been a filmmaker for ever, ever since then. So for much longer than that.
But when I was looking back, sort of 20 years later to my days at Yahoo, I'm like, wow, look at that thing that we, we created. It's sort of this Frankenstein monster. And, uh, so naturally it was a topic that I particularly wanted to explore because it was impacting my own personal life, you know, my, my own addiction to, to technology and, and my phone.
But I also had that experience 20 years prior, in the early days of it. And when you're making a documentary, you, you really need to be super passionate about a topic.
Mm-hmm.
Cause it takes a long time to make it a, a documentary and a lot of effort. So it needs to be something that you've got some kind of skin in the game, some real interest in it.
And, and because of my own backstory, that was why, and access too. You need access to people. And my Silicon Valley days gave me access to some of the people that you see in the film.
Yeah. You know, that's really interesting. That very last piece is something that you and I have never talked about before and I never quite thought about it that way.
That I'm sure you did get so many of those excellent interviews because of the people that you knew from having worked in the field, in the biz, so to speak.
Yeah. None of them directly, but you know, you, you start to put feelers out to people in the industry.
Oh, absolutely. Mm-hmm.
And then it opens up opportunities and, and even just by being able to, to say, you know, I was there too in the early days.
Yeah.
Uh, that immediately built our bond and a credibility with, with some of the people that we then interviewed. So it was actually very helpful.
I don't doubt it. And it's interesting, the reason why I wanted to start there, c can does it feels for both of us, is because I do think that it's relevant and important that you did work in, in the industry, so to speak, in that, in that business.
But I think what I'm really curious about right now is what were you noticing in your own life in terms of your own addiction that was, that was becoming compelling for you to explore?
Definitely. The fact that you, that feeling that you call, you need the checking. The checking.
Yeah. Like the pull, the tug to look to check. Yeah.
Exactly. Mm-hmm. . And still to this day, I feel it, even though I've gone in so deep into this topic and I understand exactly what it's doing to me and why.
Yeah.
I still find it really hard to resist the checking thing.
Absolutely. I do as well. And it's part, it's part of what I marvel about in this space and one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today, cuz it's, to me, this part is so interesting, but I think about my own relationship with technology, where I know that the addiction for me is not as bad as it is for other people.
You know, for younger generations, and we'll get to this in a second, but for younger people, for other people, the pull is stronger. But I look at it for myself and I think, God, I'm an expert in this space, really, you know, legitimately an expert in this space, and I've been meditating since I was 16 years old.
And I still feel the pull, I feel the tug, like it's that, that it's very powerful. So kind of waiting into the film here, because it is, you know, it is focused on younger people, people that are younger than us. Will you say a little bit about, like, in the process of making the film, what were some of the things that, that struck you the most?
Or like what, if anything, did you learn that you didn't expect to learn? What was shocking or surprising?
When I started out, I, and to be fair, it was, when was it 2018? Uh, when I started it looking into this, at that point, the, the term Gen Z wasn't really coined, hadn't really been coined. And so, for me, I just thought Gen Zed, millennials, they were all the same.
Mm-hmm.
There was this penny drop moment when I realized, ah, gen Zed are really quite different. And then through the process of making the film, that difference became, I became aware that that difference was even greater than I appreciate it. And, and even now after the film, cause we're doing, I'm doing a lot of work with young people and, and different community groups as we, as part of our impact campaign and as we're screening films, which has given me an opportunity to actually reach out.
So during the making of the film, I, I was really like, uh, I started off not even being aware that there was a difference between millennials and Gen Z.
Yeah.
The, the name Gen Z hadn't really even been coined at the beginning of my research period. And then during the making of the film, I started to appreciate, uh, the enormous, enormous difference between Gen Zs and millennials, and definitely Gen Zs and, and Gen Xs, which you and I both are.
and then even since making the film, I've been touring with the film for a couple of years now and that gets me in front of lots of different groups, lots different age groups, but also I get to talk to a lot of Gen Z since, and the topics evolved as well.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I've started to really realize they are very, very, very different. And it's not just a generation, a normal generation gap, it's a a real generation leap kind of thing. And that's that, that's the challenge. I think that's why a lot of generations do not understand Gen Z.
Yes. And it's really interesting too, to kind of think about, so it starts. Gen Z I just wanna explain for people, with people that are born in 1997, so it's wild to think that when the iPhone came out, that sort of the advent of the smartphone, they were about 10 years old.
I mean, that is so young to have this piece of technology enter the ecosystem that so radically changed all of our lives. So I can't help but think about that. But when you were saying that the conversation has evolved a little bit, how so has it evolved?
It's a good question. It's evolved in my own mind.
Mm-hmm.
A little bit because I've, I've just been able to get a deeper, an even deeper understanding. What, what the films allowed me to do is have conversations with Gen Z in the way that I wasn't able to have with them when I was making it. Because it's a, it is a great platform for discussion, so you can dig in deep.
And what's fascinating is when they say to you, oh, I really related to that, or, yeah, I really understood that bit. Or on the flip side, uh, they, you know, I talk to 'em a lot about the privacy question and they all say, yeah, yeah, privacy's really, really important to us. And, but then, , I kind of look at how they're using social media and what they're putting out there, and it seems like privacy isn't important to them at all.
And then you realize that what they think of as privacy is a completely different concept to what I think of as privacy. And then you realize the reason why, and that's because they've never experienced privacy in their life, so they don't know what it is. So it's a concept that they can't.
Oh wow. You're kind of blowing my mind right now. That's super interesting. Do you have a sense of what they think of when they think of privacy? What does that mean to them?
It's a good question. I really haven't quite grasped it. Uh, they are, it does tie into this whole piece about them being quite self-aware in that they actually understand, and I think this is often, uh, not grasped by a lot of people who are trying to figure out Gen Z.
They actually understand what's going on in the technology ecosystem.
Yeah.
Far more than we give 'em credit.
Absolutely.
So a lot of people go, they're just stuck on their phones. They don't get it, da da da da da. They get it.
Mm-hmm.
They get it better than older generations. We're more sucked in, much less aware of, of how we're being manipulated than they are in some respect.
Yeah. I think that's so true. Yeah.
But the difference is they know no difference. They've accepted that this is the life that they have been served up and this is the ecosystem that they live in. And so that's the, they're just gonna live with it.
Yeah. That's really amazing. And I, one of the things I feel so aware of right now too is that for anyone who hasn't seen the film hearing this conversation, what they probably can't imagine yet is that there were these themes that started to emerge. There's a real theme that emerges in the film of the strengths of this generation, because on the one hand here, they are hooked to this technology all the time. I, I, I worry for their mental health as a result. And there is some data to support the idea that it's there, it's there's reason to worry, but they also are taking action in ways that our generation has failed to do.
And, and they're, and they're, they're plugged in and they're juiced in, and they're, and they are awake and aware and paying attention and taking action in ways that are, I think is really inspiring. And I, I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that, like what you learned about them in the process of making the film that way.
Yeah. That's fascinating. It's kind of a mixed bag. So first of all, they feel that they're responsible for fixing the world.
Mm-hmm.
We broke it and now they've gotta fix it.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, which is a huge weight on the shoulder of, of a young generation. And they, they really feel, feel that, and there's obviously things beyond technology.
The film is done through the prism of technology and how it's affecting their lives. There are other issues in the world which are, are driving this, of course, climate crisis being one of them. And, and what we're seeing generally, what's going on in the world.
So they, they are living in very uncertain times. They're living in what they perceive as a broken world, and they feel like they've, they've got to fix it.
And so some of this sort of activism, the Gen Z activism that you are, you are seeing, that you are referring to is this positive trait that they're, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna do something. You know, the, uh, but the way they're doing it is different.
So they are in, they are using social media to do it. They are getting out on the streets as well. They're backing it up with, with that too. But they, they see social media as one of their tools for, for actually being activists.
But then slightly on the flip side is there's an element of, well, it's easy to be an activist behind your screen.
Yeah?
Right.
And when it actually comes to doing something like physical and hands-on and in the real world to change and make a difference. I dunno to what extent they're being successful, uh, in that regard. I think in a way you are seeing them because they, they see that social media and uh, is, is their platform.
Mm-hmm.
So that's the platform that they're using.
Mm-hmm.
But it has its limitations too. So yes, they're activists. Yes, there's a lot of desire and will to change the world, but their activism does seem to be very much within, and I speak, say this just broadly speaking, it's obviously very different for everyone's a little bit different, but it, their activism does seem to live within their digital ecosystem more so than in the real world.
Well, it's amazing because it's hard to imagine that the problems that we're talking about are so large that I certainly can see how they could be working to solve problems and not necessarily succeeding at it.
But I also wonder if this is the perfect bridge to get into the film that we're working on together now, which is, so just say The Deadline, but, uh, it sort of feels like we're right in this territory of how you started to come upon your idea for the next film.
So do you wanna share that with people? What, what did that journey consist of for you?
Yeah. At the end of, I'm Gen Z and spoiler alert.
Mm-hmm.
It's not big, but, uh, uh, Tim Kendall, he says something along the lines of, you know, maybe capitalism has run its course and we need to find something new, something evolved.
And then there's also the clip from Greta Thunberg who, at one of the cops where she says, the system is broken, then let's change the system. Yeah. And that got me thinking, and I, you know, you, she was 15 at the time when she said that, and you, you know, I love to sort of take the simplicity of the way a 15 year old thinks sometimes and apply it to our adult wild world.
Yeah.
It's brilliant, isn't it?
The wisdom of babes. Yeah.
Yeah. So, you know, the system clearly is broken. Uh, I would say at the moment, in, in pretty much every corner of the world and globally, we've got a lot of problems and also climate crisis wise, uh, it's broken. And that was her reference. Uh, but why can't we change that system?
So that was where the, the idea of the next film started and I started sort of researching and thinking about, well, how do we change the system so that we can actually solve some of these big systemic problems that we have, uh, as, as a global species, as you know, human beings.
Mm-hmm.
And so it went from there. Originally it was gonna, it started off being called the system in fact, and then, and then it's moved on to being called the deadline. Which is a reference of course, to the big looming deadline that humanity has, uh, which is obviously fixing the climate crisis and, and the issues relating to that. And, but then within, within that sort of framing device, the story has lots of personal deadlines of people's story with their own personal deadlines, which really shows the story of, you know, this polarization that we're seeing right across the world now.
So that's, that was the inspiration for it.
Yeah, and it really is amazing to think about specifically the role that the internet plays in that, you know, that here we are talking very specifically about the role that political polarization is, is playing in our ability or lack thereof to solve this gigantic problem.
And I think there is this very natural bridge from one topic to the other, but I wonder as we're just at the beginning phases here and starting to film and you know, and I know you're editing some footage as we speak. What are some of the things that you feel like you're beginning to learn about what is happening in the world at even a global level?
Such a big question, but we're tackling a big topic here.
It's a massive topic, and it's been super interesting actually getting out and filming some of this. And as I'm starting to edit the first elements of it, it's starting to take, take shape. And what's fascinating is you have different people from different parts of the world with different backgrounds, different agendas, but the themes and some of the issues the same, even on the, um, different sides of the divide.
Mm-hmm.
So we, we went to Missouri, uh, last month and we filmed that and that was absolutely fascinating. And we filmed, you know, the progressives versus the populist sort of voice, but both of them say, you know, it's social media, that's may cause this polarization has created this, this, this massive polarization.
Mm-hmm.
And it's social media that's warping the conversation. It's just then, then after that their, their views, uh, go in different directions.
Yeah. It's like the only thing we can agree on, huh?
Yeah. But they're both agreeing that social media is really, uh, at the heart of the cause of, uh, of this issue.
Yeah.
That's amazing. Will you say a little bit about what specifically you were shooting in Missouri? Mm-hmm.
Good question. What surprised me most? So, yeah, when you go over there is a, Peter is a British person, uh, so a non-American, someone who hasn't grown up in Missouri. You have a certain image of what you think it's going to be like.
And, uh, I was blown away by how beautiful it is, by the way. It's extraordinary out there. But, you know, it's a red state, you know, there's, you know, the, the gun, the, the, what's it? The Second Amendment, kind of gun rights lot, the MAGA crowd, all that sort of thing.
So I was kind of expecting that. And it was interesting. The very, within the first minute of actually filming there, I was following somebody coming outta the building with my camera and someone drove past and shouted fake news in the first minute of filming.
So you could, you could tell already this sort of, this tension was there, uh, straight away. You know, this, this narrative, this fake news narrative is so embedded in the culture there now, that as soon as they saw a camera, they had no idea what I was filming. They had no idea which side of the polarized divide I'm on.
They were just driving past, but they saw a camera and shouted fake news. So it's, you know, it's just, it's so that the tension possess came away. But what I was surprised about is I also met, uh, a lot of pro, what you call progressives, what some people would call communists. And, uh, I, there was a massive diversity within that group.
So in a way, you know, I live in a very, very multicultural diversity. I live in London and you see all types in London.
Mm-hmm.
All, all looks and genders and identity that, that are out there. But I found more different identities in this little town in Missouri than I did in London in some ways. You know, from sort of a trans man to, uh, different nonconforming groups to. It, it was fascinating to actually see the side I didn't expect to see in Missouri. Does that make sense?
Absolutely. And it's so interesting and one of the things this is making me think of, so my friend Heather White, who's the founder of a nonprofit organization called One Green Thing that I'm, I'm on the board for, uh, actually interviewed her in the first season of this podcast.
She was telling me once we were talking about all of this stuff and just political polarization and the role that it's playing in the climate crisis and stuff. And she was explaining to me that, there's this phenomenon, I think it's referred to as rolling coal, and if I'm wrong about that, I'll, I'll fix it in the intro.
But she told me that people will drive up to climate protests in these huge monster trucks that emit like black, you know, smut out of their, uh, you know, emissions pipes. And they'll just, you know, sort of like gun the gas and blow coal out of the back of their engines to protest against the protesting of the climate crisis.
And I think about that and I think about how much it highlights this idea of just these bubbles that we live in now, and the absolute tension point that we're all at kind of two sides screaming at each other, not getting through at all so far, really not making much progress. One side is not influencing the other or vice versa, but it's just, I'm sort of thinking about the role that that must have played in, you know, as you were there filming on the one hand, LGBTQ activists, it sounds like that's like part of what you were covering in Missouri, but then I also know that you were going to gun shows and filming people that were Second Amendment activists, guns, gun rights activists.
I mean it's, it does feel a little bit to me sometimes, and this is maybe more of a statement than a question, but it feels like the world has gone mad.
I mean, it was, it was very, it was fascinating being in the, on being with those people on the different sides of the divide, because both sides, they were super friendly and welcoming and the, the, we were so warmly welcomed there.
Mm-hmm.
But the tension was palpable. But the scary thing is on the progressive side, there were quite a few people who we interviewed, who we worked with, who said, look, I cannot be on camera because I have fear of retaliation cuz someone may shoot me or dox me. Yeah. Or, you know, and that's where it's scary.
And, and I think the difference between, you know, living somewhere in London like that versus Missouri, is that I can still say stuff and not have to be worried about being caught on camera. Whereas if you live in Missouri where this set were, some of them were like, I can't take the risk. And that's, that's scary cuz that's where you start to see, you know, the, the direction, the trajectory that we're on that, that's quite scary.
And you see it obviously in, you know, totalitarian regimes. You know, you see it to its extreme in, in China where you can't say anything or Hong Kong, God good lord de uh, or Iran, you know, that sounds, that's extreme. And we all go, oh, you know, Americans, British people, oh well, we'll never be like that. But you'd see that it's actually going in that direction.
And self-censorship is, is happening just because it's too, the consequences of speaking out can be quite grave.
It's really an amazing thing to think about. And now a word from our sponsor.
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When you say the trajectory that we're on, can you say a little bit more about that? Do you feel like we're sliding in the direction of totalitarianism?
Yeah, I mean, obviously totalitarianism is the extreme and one step prior to that is authoritarianism. And there's a big leap between the two.
Yeah.
And, uh, one step prior to that is sort of democratic authoritarianism. And, you know, you have people like now, like Victor Orban who's open. He said, you know, I, I am proud to be illiberal.
Yeah.
And you know, he's, Hungary is still a democratic country. Hungary is still part of the EU, and yet he's proud to be illiberal.
And you are seeing right across Europe, the, the move towards the far right. We've just had Georgia Maloney elected in Italy. Here in the UK, uh, you know, the right, there's a strong right, uh, wing movement going on too, uh, in other countries, uh, as well. Not only Europe, but it's really, you're seeing a lot. I mean, in, in France even, you know, Marine Le Pen got 40% of, of the vote. Yes, she didn't win but that's still 40% of, of the popular vote went, uh, went right when.
Yeah.
So you're definitely seeing that movement. And the, the other piece that we've already filmed was actually life changing for me in that. We went, uh, to the Polish-Belarus border and myself, Chantelle, the producer, and Kuba, this amazing, wonderful cameraman that we are working with in, in Poland.
The three of us have turned up at this base where there's these activists who are going out into the forests to help migrants who are, who have come over the Belarusian border into the police forest, and they're having to hide from the Polish border guard because they will get pushed back if they're caught. And it, it's terrifying when you're pushed back. I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, helicopters, drains, dogs. You know, it's, it's just awful.
And it's also totally against EU and international law to not allow somebody to apply for asylum. Right?
Yeah.
And, uh, they're basically political points. And that we, so we went into the forest and, and I went in with the activists and, you know, found these migrants.
And no matter what your politics are, you know, that moment when I came across the, the group for the first time who were, you know, it's freezing cold. It's wet. It's miserable in there. And you see this group of people and you are just like, this is inhumane. You know, and the thought that people are pushing them back and, and not allowing them basic human rights is terrifying.
And that is another example of us moving towards more authoritarian thinking.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, you hear it everywhere. It's that build this wall narrative, you know?
Yeah.
Build that or build this wall, which you hear in America, um, all the time with the sort of the Trumpism. It's the same thinking. And you hear it in Poland. You hear it in Hungary. You hear it, you know, even here in the UK there's a whole load of, they're calling it an invasion with the small boats crisis.
And, you know, yes, the migrant and legal migrant issue is very complex, very, very complex. But from a humanitarian point of view, uh, it's horrendous what's going on.
To, to be very clear for a moment here. Is what is happening at the Polish, Belarus border, is what's driving that primarily, uh, anti-immigrant sentiment?
So there's two things going on here. Um, and when we talk about the trajectory that we're on, there's a, there's a big geopolitical, uh, elements that are coming into play. So the political pawns piece, so a year ago there weren't migrants coming across that part of the Polish Belarus border, but what, and that was because the Belarusian border guard was stopping them.
But what Putin and, and Lukashenko, who's effectively his puppet started doing, is they started letting them across.
Mm-hmm.
Because they wanted to destabilize Western Europe. So all of a sudden you're starting to get people coming across, and a lot of them are fleeing war, by the way. So I'm not talking about Ukrainians.
Ukrainians have safe passage, but I'm talking about people from the Yemen, from Afghanistan, from DRC, who were also all fleeing war, but they're not Ukrainians. So they don't the same asylum rights than the Ukrainian.
Yeah. And they're not, and they're not white. I can't help but wanna, you know, I know this is multifaceted, but that feels like a factor.
Ukrainian people are white.
Correct. Yeah.
Generally speaking. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, exactly. They, they don't have the same cultural background and they don't look the same as, as the Ukrainians do. As you know, there's a lot more similarities.
Mm-hmm.
So first of all, not all migrants are treated the same as, as we're seeing.
Yeah.
But they also use as political porns on a much bigger geopolitical scale. So, so that is going on in the first instance.
On a, a sort of more national level with the populist leaders coming in. And you can, you've obviously had tramp, you have Botarro, you had Boris Johnson, uh, you have, uh, Orban, uh, uh, Erdogan, you know all of them.
You can keep listing them.
Yeah.
Where they're coming in. They're coming in using that anti-immigrant rhetoric of fear. So that has been building for years.
So locally, uh, this sort of, you know, the, if you go, uh, in Hungary, it's really interesting that Orban got him for a fourth term and he got vote except for him. Budapest itself, pretty much everywhere else is, is, is how he won that election. And if you go into the countryside in Hungary, most people will say, yeah, I'm terrified of these migrants because they're gonna, um, kill my mother or rape my children. You know, they've really bought into that fear narrative.
I, I thought you were gonna say, take my job.
Like apparently it's, so, the fear is we've gotten much darker, huh?
It's really dark. And this is outta the authoritarian, populist playbook is fear.
Yes.
You use fear.
Mm-hmm.
And that's what's going on. So you've got this, this really, it's happening in both angles. It's happening on a nationalist level where you are building the fear, anti-immigration rhetoric. And it's happening on a big global geopolitical level where the big superpowers, you know, uh, you know, Russia and stuff like that in China or whatever, there is it, they're playing a game.
Mm-hmm.
And in the case of Russia and the migrants, you know, they're actually trying to destabilize Western Europe by, by actually allowing the, these immigrants to come in.
And then the worst bit is what then happened. So they allowed some of them to come over the border. The Polish border guard would push them back towards the Belarusian border. The Belarusian border guard wouldn't let them back in. So for a period of time, a whole load of migrants just ended up stuck in this weird kind of no man's land.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
That used for a bit and then it happened again. It is just inhumane.
Well, so there's one thing that you just said that I didn't understand, and I'm thinking about the role that, that Russia is playing and that Putin is playing and trying to destabilize Western Europe. You're saying that he's doing that by letting the migrants migrants in?
Yeah.
To Western Europe?
Yeah. He wants to, you know, by, by, um, allow, by creating a migrant crisis or aiding a migrant crisis, it's destabilizing Europe. It's a big problem. And, you know, you can't take in millions and millions and millions of migrants. It's a problem for Europe for sure. I'm not saying you should let everybody in.
It's, you know, if we let the whole, well come into Europe, we've got a, we've got a massive problem, and they know that, but then it just plays into the political game too.
Oh, that's really interesting.
It's not just Putin.
Mm-hmm.
So you look what happened in America recently with the, uh, migrants who were sent on a plane to Martha's Vineyard.
Yes.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Same tactic. Yeah?
Right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Okay.
So you are, you're using them as political pawns is, is really what, what I'm saying uh, with that, with that. In, and that then creates a lot of tension within Poland, within Europe or within America. If you are doing that and, you know, and, and then the fighting happens.
Yeah.
And then other tie in with this, the other tie in with Putin, uh, or Russia is, you know, they interfered with, there's a lot of evidence to show now that they interfered with the elections in the US that they in interfered with Brexit. Uh, you know.
Absolutely.
That's also destabilizing. It's also a destabilizing.
Mm-hmm.
It's also a destabilizing tactic because if Western Europe and all the west rather is, is not stable, then it gives him more of an advantage or gives Russia more of an advantage.
So here's where my brain is going right now. I have a, a question I wanna ask you that's really big and challenging and, and, um, you might feel like you don't know how to answer it, but I wanna try anyway because it's, I'm thinking about the, the role that the internet is playing in this and the ways in which people are being manipulated. And I think about even just the nature of propaganda.
And here we are, certainly in the United States as an individual country. And then to your point, this is happening all over the world. I'm thinking about how much of the, sort of the social media bubbles that we live in and everything. How much of this is the nature of the internet playing itself out, the nature of propaganda versus how much we are kind of tugging at something that is innate in human nature?
It may be a both and thing. It might be a, you know, but I just, I wonder where your brain goes when you think about just the, you know, the rise of fascism around the globe and the people that are, uh, you know, have an authoritarian mindset or inclined to vote in authoritarian leaders. How much of this is a result of political polarization and social media bubbles, and how much of this is innate to us?
How much, how much have we unearthed something that was already here, I guess is in some ways is the question I wanna ask.
Yeah. I mean, propaganda's been around for a long, long, long time. It's just now with social media and, and the internet, it's propaganda on speed.
Mm-hmm.
And or, you know, authoritarian, yeah, groups and bad actors. It's just like heaven, right?
Mm-hmm.
You suddenly, it can disseminate so much more. Your propaganda can disseminate so much more easily, so much quicker. And unfortunately because of the business model of the tech companies and the algorithms, it ends up highlighting the more extreme content.
So what you've ended up with is a situation where before, sure, there was division, but because of the dynamics of what the information ecosystem has, the digital informa, information ecosystem has done is it's take made those extremes more extreme. So people who were perhaps left and now more left and people who were right are more right.
Yeah.
Um, and it's also completely distorted the way the information that we get. So where I'm going with this is, in the past a very extreme view would've been a fringe view and it wouldn't have got on a lot of people's radar.
Mm-hmm.
But suddenly, because it's actually more clickable, more interesting, or whatever
can go viral, et cetera.
It goes viral. The algorithms pick it up. It's shown to more people.
It then gets into the mainstream cuz it has a normalizing effect.
So when you take this one little fringe view, which suddenly gets a lot more, , uh, airtime because of the nature of it, because it's extreme, which in itself starts to normalize that view. And then when you start hearing lots of other people saying the same thing because they've been reading and hearing the same things, you start to accept that as the norm and as a psychologist, you'll be able to unpack, unpack this better than me.
Hmm. Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, I think for now I'll just say that I think you are absolutely onto something and you're absolutely right about it. And it's interesting how, because our brains are built to believe things that we think come from trustworthy sources, part of what trustworthy sources consists of is, you know, a notion of what we call social proof.
And a lot of that just has to do with power in numbers, right? If there is a lot of people who believe a thing, a lot of people are more likely to believe it because there's, you know, for lack of a better words, we could call it mass appeal. You know, so if you look at something like the, all of the people who think the earth is flat.
And it's interesting to think that, yeah. If there's, you know, lots of people that believe it and it's got this viral quality that you're talking about, it's sort of zooming around the internet at lightning fast speed and there's whole clubs and groups and Facebook groups devoted to, you know, trying to debunk the idea that the earth is round. Yeah. A lot of it, it's, it starts to almost sweep people up. Like it's a, you know, people get swept into this.
And who do you trust the most? You trust? Uh, friends and family most.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
And before in the old days, uh, you would be getting a lot of your information from press?
Yes.
And, and journalists have a certain requirement to check their sources. They've done research. Uh, you know, they, they are professionals in that regard. But your mom, your friend from school or whatever, they are not professional journalists. They are not held to the same standards of journalists. But if they say something to you, you are actually more inclined to believe them because they're, you're in your safe network of people in your peer group.
And what social media did it distorted it. So suddenly you started to get a whole load of information from this close group of people who you actually just naturally trust and you are taking less of your information these days from, uh, proper, you know, news journalists.
Yes, and I'll add one more group to that, which is so friends, family, news sources, and anyone that we perceive to be an authority figure, that tends to be trustworthy for us just as human beings.
And so when we're kids, those are our teachers and things like that. You know, camp counselors, anyone who's in a position of authority. And as we grow up and we become adults, that becomes our political leaders. And so you can sort of start to see this layering on, right? I think about people who believe, you know that all of the politicians that have told them that the election was stolen or you know, anyone that looks to Donald Trump to get their information. It's, there's an authority figure piece of this as well. That's super distorting on a global level.
But, so obviously we're covering a lot of ground here and I wanna start to. Tie up some things and bring things home a little bit. I know that you're probably gonna have to complete filming and editing the deadline before you will know where all of this lands.
But I'm wondering if you have anything optimistic to say about the future of any of this. And some of that could come maybe from, from the work that you did on I am Gen Z. Like is it, it feels like the conversation that we're having is pretty dispiriting and I wonder if there's anything that we could say, uh, to offer any solace here.
I mean, there are little signs, there are some positive things going on. Uh, you just look at Brazil, what's happened there, and Bolsonaro narrow ,lost very narrowly . Uh, to be fair, almost half the country voted for him. But Lula did get in and, uh, Lula, uh, COP27 has pledged to say, you know, we're gonna look after the rainforest and do some very positive things from a climate crisis point of view. Uh, the proof's gonna be in pudding. We'll see what happens in, in the coming years.
And you are, you are seeing in South America there is the, the sort of progressive left is starting to come into power. So in Latin America, there's, there's a move in that direction. We had the mildly good news at the midterms.
There wasn't the red waves that was predicted.
In the US. Yeah. Just to be clear.
But, mm. and a lot of people, you know, did get out to vote in the midterms, which is, you know, a lot of people don't even bother because they, they really, really were worried about what was going on. And I guess Roe v Wade was a, was a big factor in that.
Uh, and I think a lot of, uh, the progressives have taken a lot of energy from the fact that it wasn't as bad as they expected.
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
You know, and, and one of the things that we've seen in the US um, is, you know, how the right seems to be a lot more, sort of almost better organized than perhaps the left.
And perhaps we're starting to see the, the left sort of getting a little bit more active and organized. Maybe. But I mean, and then by the same token, it, it wasn't like an landslide victory was still, it was, you know, it was just better than expected.
So there are some positive moves, things we're seeing, uh, in the world, but it's only, you know, it could take very little for it.
It's not enough.
Yeah.
But there is, there is a little bit of hope.
Yeah.
I mean obviously in the UK. Well no, it's not gonna go that. It's so complicated. What just happened in the UK is mind blowing with all like million prime ministers and about five minutes, what a mess that, that all was. Um, but yeah.
Seriously, seriously, it's interesting how you do definitely have your own problems over there ever since Brexit. It's, you know, it's been a wild, wild ride for you too. And one thing I'll say about the US elections as well is that one thing that was really comforting to me to see is that a lot of the election deniers that were on the ballot did not win their races. And that, you know, it's the 2022 election in the US was complicated in terms of, you know, we did better than expected.
But you know, obviously it wasn't a landslide slide victory. But there's some evidence that some of the, some of the races we did when were really important ones.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that was really positive. And actually when I was in Missouri, I got to follow Crystal Quaid, who's one of, at the time was only one of only two Democratic representatives in Missouri.
And I followed her. She went door knocking. And it was really fascinating, uh, talking to her, following her and seeing the work she was doing and how she was engaging with the community. And I took a lot of encouragement from that. And I'm pleased to say she actually won as well. And they managed to flip one more little seat, uh, in their area too.
And you know, this little, there's a little by little when. And she's, her attitude is, you know, we're obviously not gonna be able to flip everything overnight, but just keep working at a local level. And there's a lot of people I'm meeting, uh, uh, who are extremely inspiring and doing incredible things. And from that, I'm taking a lot. That, that's what gives me hope. You know, the time I spent in Poland. The people I worked with there, the people I followed, there're extraordinary people. Yeah. Incredible. And I think there's a lot of people who, who are going, enough is enough. I have to do something about that. And they are putting their livelihoods and in some cases their lives at risk to try and counter what's going on.
And I mean, you just look at what's happened in Iran, right? I mean, literally people have put their lives on their line and literally people have lost their lives because they've had enough.
Yeah. It's amazing. As I, as I start to kind of think about connecting the dots between these films, I'm sort of coming full circle just to thinking about the nature of the internet and the role that it plays in all of our individual lives.
And between your work on I am Gen Z and now the deadline. Have you changed any of your own behaviors around how you use digital technology in your life? Or has this informed, uh, you know, just any changes you've wanted to make in your own life in terms of how you think about the role the technology plays in it?
Yeah, I, I mean, I'm more, I try to be much more intentional about how I use my technology and, you know, as I go around doing talks with, I Am Gen Z, the, the first question, the question I got ev get every time is, you know, well, what can we do, you know about this? How can we, how can we mitigate this? And I always answer, you know, be more intentional about how we use it.
So I am quite conscious and aware that if I'm using it or I'm getting pulled in, you know, is there a good reason for me to be using it now? And I try and apply that to, to my own life. But it's hard, right?
It is hard
hard,
to do that all the time.
Mm-hmm.
So I, I definitely am more aware of that. I really, it was interest.
It's been interesting as I've been making the deadline, I have been avidly following the news in all these different countries as part of my research and the dooms scrolling thing has really come into play. And I, I found that I've been so like sucked into reading the news and the different channels all the time that, you know, by the end of the day I'm sometimes mentally emotion just exhausted by all.
And I know I'm in that research phase and it's part of what I need to do in order to really grapple with these big topics and understand them and figure out how to tell this story. But I am finding myself quite exhausted by this project in some ways.
Yeah. I don't doubt it.
And so finding that sort of, that mental space, that me space to get away from it is, is really, really important.
And actually, you know, For me, I go out and do my sport. And when I do my sport, I'm thinking of nothing else but the sport that I'm doing. And you can't be on your phone whilst you're doing sport, which is great. So that's the way I coped with it. But what was super interesting is when we were in Poland, when I was talking with the, with the activists, I mean, they are going out into the forest day and nights, they're exhausted. It's exhausting work what they, what they do. And, but there's this really dark black humor, there's that happens as well. And it was very funny at times. And we were talking about that and they said, we, we have to laugh. We have to have this dark black humor because that keeps us sane. And that I thought was fascinating.
I I totally get it. And, and actually quick follow up question too, because one of the things I'm finding myself thinking about is also trustworthiness of news sources and whether you feel, do you ever find yourself as you're reading all of this news wondering whether it's trustworthy in how you can know, whether you can trust it?
Oh, this is super interesting actually.
Mm-hmm.
So I forced myself to, I, you know, I always read The Guardian and the New York Times and all that kind of stuff, so I was very much in that bubble. Uh, to be fair, that wouldn't be a surprise properly, but in order to make the deadline, I've, I've made sure that I've started reading, uh, news from the other side and, uh, what's been super and listening to podcasts from completely a different perspective.
And what's been super interesting with that is sometimes you can really feel yourself getting pulled into that. And you start to understand, you know, the way that the other side are thinking more. And some of the arguments have germs of truth in them. They're sort of valid initially. But then, they go off on, it takes, goes off on an interesting tangent. And you're like, Ooh, how have you gone from that A to B?
But you, you've been taken on that tangent with them and you must have to check yourself and go, Ooh, that's kind of an interesting distortion of how you've gone from this fact to this conclusion.
And yeah, like it seems logical, but if you actually unpack it, there are some leaps and some mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. And one of the, uh, super interesting interview, unfortunately, they wouldn't agree to be on camera in the end, but I met a far right student group in Missouri, and, you know, they were so eloquent about how they explained their point of view that I kind of started to get it to a certain extent. So the, you know, I, I, I kind of understood where they were coming from. And then, When I started unpack it a little bit afterwards, it was also terrifying, what I was hearing, the implications of it.
And so, yeah, I, I'm sort of rambling a bit because at the moment I'm still trying to make sense of my own experience of living in both worlds, both on the polarized divides, living in both sides of it. It's, it's fascinating how I, you can quite easily flip. Uh, I can't explain it. Do you know why, what, I mean?
I absolutely know what you mean, but I'll actually take it one step further in a way that I, I hope isn't too, too creepy for people.
But it's, I think it's something that's worth thinking about. I'm finding myself thinking about the fact that it is very easy to notice when a foreign government is using propaganda and manipulating its citizens. In the sense that I think anybody who is pays much attention to the news, can be aware of how Putin manipulates the people in Russia into thinking all sorts of things that we can kind of clearly see are not factually accurate.
Obviously the, probably the most extreme version of this on the face of the planet is what happens in North Korea. But you know, you can, we can look at China. We can look at Russia. We can look at North Korea. We can see the way the citizens of those countries are being manipulated.
It's far harder to see the ways in which we are being manipulated.
And one of the things that I find myself being feeling disturbed by, even as we're having this conversation is I'm remembering the role that the New York Times played in Hillary Clinton's defeat.
And I won't unpack that thoroughly right here, but there was this whole moment with really leaning into what Comey was saying, and this but you know, this, the email investigation and there was a moment that they completely exonerated Donald Trump of something that was being looked into where he was concerned around that time.
And it, to me, it would be very hard to argue that the New York Times didn't play a pretty pivotal role in the election of Donald Trump in 2016. And they are a news organization that I would love to believe that I can trust. And I, I don't know that we always necessarily can. And I, uh, I think what I'm thinking about more than anything is the, how incredibly important it can be for all of us to retain a sense of skepticism with like pretty much anything that we read. And it doesn't matter whether it's on the right or it's on the left or it's the Washington Daily News or these, you know, crazy news organizations that, that often float in right wing circles. But I think we, in some ways, we almost have to be skeptical of everything.
I think you've just hit the nail on the head there. For me, I hadn't quite figured out what it, what it was that I was feeling, but that sense of how easy it is to manipulate me.
Mm-hmm.
When I, whether I'm reading whichever piece of press I'm reading, it's very easy for us to be manipulated.
Yeah.
And that's what I'm, that's what I'm feeling is, and then that then is helping me understand why people are going, whichever direction they choose to be going in.
Cuz it's very easy to sort of get stuck on a certain narrative.
Absolutely. And I'll an example that comes to mind for me. You can just tell me how this lands with you. As I'm thinking about with Covid, for example, you know, I believe that Covid is real. I, I got vaccinated, so it's important to know, for what I'm about to say, that that's the, the side of things I'm ultimately on.
You know, I, I don't believe that people were getting micro chipped by getting vaccinated or, or anything like that. But I think that some of the rhetoric on the left around how vitally important it was to get vaccinated and how much it was, you know, demonic to not get vaccinated. And if you didn't get vaccinated, you deserved, you know, any consequences that came to you.
And there's, there was some rhetoric around it that I think if on the left, if we could have pulled back a little bit and to notice just how much, actually people on the left were being encouraged to hate a group of people because God forbid they even have some questions that they wanted to ask or they were a little bit skeptical or, you know, maybe they had some concerns about pharmaceutical companies or they maybe needed more convincing.
It was just like, absolutely not. You know, put a gold star on you and you know, whatever. And I think that it's, I that is actually a really good example to me of ways in which it probably could be valuable to reflect a little bit on how, on how much we are all manipulated by the news. All of us.
And we've been manipulated all, all, you know, for years, people before us.
And you know, we, we talked about propaganda earlier. We're always constantly being manipulated, uh, for sure. But it just feels. Now with so much information and so many, uh, the, the information ecosystem that's out there now, uh, the level to which we're being manipulated is, is extraordinary and it's much more complex.
And I'm very aware of that. But you said about, you know, needing skepticism.
Uh, on the flip side, I also worry about being too skeptical. I see some people now who are so skeptical of everything.
Yeah.
They don't, they can't believe in anything anymore, and that's actually not helpful.
That could be a dangerous overcorrection.
Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having this conversation with me today.
You've been listening to the fifth episode of Season Three of The Nature of Nurture, and I wanna thank you for joining us. You can find Liz online at lizsmith.com, or you can sign up for her newsletter or follow her blog. If you'd like to connect with me, my website is lesliecarr.com. If you found this conversation valuable, please let me know by leaving a review or a rating.
It helps immensely to get the word out about the podcast and into the ears of those who may need it most. It'll also help me to understand what you're getting out of our conversations. You can also subscribe if you haven't already, and any podcast app that you can get your hands on. Next up is our last conversation of the season, and it's going to be a fantastic follow up to this one.
We're gonna talk to Tara Thiagarajan, the founder and CEO of Sapien Labs, about the incredible data that she's gathering with her research about how the internet is changing our brains and how the modern world is impacting our mental health. It's an incredible end to the season, so I hope you'll tune.
Many, many thanks to my producer and sound editor, Amanda Roscoe Mayo, and to Liz for having this conversation with me. Thank you as well to Donie Odulio for the artwork, and thank you to Steve Van Dyck, Lee and Tyler Sargent, and Joe Potts for the permission to use their music. The band was called Clown Down.