Host Leslie welcomes environmental lawyer, author, and nonprofit founder Heather White back to The Nature of Nurture for a powerful, wide-ranging conversation about climate, mental health, and hope. Heather is the founder of OneGreenThing.org and author of four books including Eco Anxiety: Saving Our Sanity, Our Kids, and Our Future. Together, Leslie and Heather take an unflinching look at the urgent state of the climate crisis—the political setbacks, the psychological toll on younger generations, and the intersection between environmental collapse and mental health. But while the discussion begins in realism, it ends in empowerment. Heather shares why she still believes it's not too late to change direction—and how everyday actions, collective consciousness, and hope itself are revolutionary tools in shaping a livable future. She introduces the idea of doing “one green thing” each day, explains why both individual and systemic change are essential, and offers insight into her “Service Superpower Assessment” that helps people connect their unique strengths to meaningful action. Heather and Leslie also discuss creative long-term thinking inspired by Heather’s TED Talk, Eco Anxiety as a Message from Our Future Selves—a call to imagine the kind of world we could build by 2050 if we act with courage, compassion, and vision today. This conversation covers: How climate anxiety impacts young people Why culture and politics must shift together Simple, actionable ways to live with purpose in the face of crisis The role of imagination in transforming fear into hope Guest Heather White is an environmental lawyer, advocate, and founder of OneGreenThing.org, a nonprofit addressing climate and mental health through joyful daily action. She has served in leadership roles on Capitol Hill, worked on Al Gore’s presidential campaign, and is the author of Eco Anxiety: Saving Our Sanity, Our Kids, and Our Future and 60 Days to a Greener Life. Her TED Talk, Eco Anxiety as a Message from Our Future Selves, invites audiences to turn fear into creativity and stewardship. Resources & Links The Nature of Nurture TheNatureofNurture.com One Green Thing: OneGreenThing.org Patreon Membership https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheNatureofNurture Watch on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@TheNatureofNurture This podcast is available in all podcast apps but here’s the Apple link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-nature-of-nurture/id1561379347 Credits Hosted by Dr. Leslie Carr Guest: Heather White Produced by Dr. Leslie Carr, Bri Coorey, and Asher Freidberg Recorded at SLAP Studios LA
00:00:00:20 - 00:00:19:13
Leslie Carr
Welcome to the fifth season of The Nature of Nurture with Doctor Leslie Carr. A podcast for your mental health. I'm your host, Leslie, if you're watching this podcast right now, you can find the audio version in any podcast app. And if you're listening, you can also watch this episode on YouTube. The nature of nurture. You can find that link in the show notes.
00:00:19:15 - 00:00:42:14
Leslie Carr
We're here today with Heather White. It's her second time on the program, and I could not be more thrilled to have her back. Heather is the founder of the nonprofit organization One Green thing.org, and she's the author of three books, including Eco Anxiety Saving Our Sanity, Our Kids and Our Future, and 60 days to a Greener Life. She's an environmental lawyer by training, having served the movement for nearly three decades.
00:00:42:16 - 00:01:05:12
Leslie Carr
She worked on Capitol Hill as Energy and environment Legislative Council to US Senator Russ Feingold and Presidential campaign staffer and recount attorney to Vice President Al Gore. She's a frequent spokesperson in the national media on environmental issues, and has been featured on Good Morning America, CBS, PBS, ABC, NBC, and quoted in The New York Times, The Guardian and Teen Vogue.
00:01:05:13 - 00:01:28:23
Leslie Carr
I could honestly keep singing her praises all day, but suffice it to say, I'm lucky to call her a friend, and I'm proud to serve on her board of directors for One green thing. The organization sits at the intersection of mental health and climate. It looks at the climate crisis as a psychological crisis, and it's working to address eco anxiety and environmental paralysis through education and joyful daily action.
00:01:29:00 - 00:01:52:12
Leslie Carr
We're going to be addressing some tough issues today, like where we are on climate right now. So this is not going to be a conversation that's in denial about the gravity of the matter at hand. But as an expert in this space, Heather strongly believes that it's not too late for the environmental movement, and I agree. So if you could use a dose of hope and inspiration that's grounded in the reality of this moment, you're in the right place.
00:01:52:14 - 00:02:14:05
Leslie Carr
If the conversation seems dark at first. Please don't turn away. I promise this conversation will leave you feeling informed, empowered, and hopeful. Thank you, Heather white. So, Heather, you and I were joking recently about the difference between our threads selves and our Instagram selves.
00:02:14:07 - 00:02:28:00
Heather White
Yeah, there's this great meme, Sandy from Greece, you know, pre the festival or at the carnival. And so you have, like, Sandy and her cute little cardigan, and then you have her in the black leather and threads is the black leather for sure.
00:02:28:00 - 00:02:28:11
Leslie Carr
Absolutely.
00:02:28:11 - 00:02:31:19
Heather White
Definitely channeling that version of Sandy on threads.
00:02:31:20 - 00:02:53:07
Leslie Carr
Totally. I've seen other versions of that too. You know, with different actresses that have played parts where maybe in one scene or movie they're glossy in and in another one they're, you know, a warrior of the apocalypse. And, you know, you and I on Instagram, we have you, obviously, you and I have many things in common, but on Instagram, you know, we are naturally and we all have multiple parts of ourselves.
00:02:53:11 - 00:03:09:11
Leslie Carr
This is all totally normal to the human condition. But on Instagram we want to show, you know, our optimistic side, our hopeful side, the inspiring side, maybe the high vibe side. And then, you know, you go over to threads and you get a different version of us, and.
00:03:09:13 - 00:03:31:19
Heather White
That's where the snark comes out, for sure. I'm snarky, much more snarky on threads, and I think part of it, it's not as much like the curated vibe of Instagram, it's just that all of these current events have been happening at such a rapid pace, it's really hard to process it all. Yeah, and in real time, more and more, I'm getting my news that way and that is where the snark.
00:03:31:19 - 00:03:54:06
Leslie Carr
Comes on that that's that's why I wanted to start. There is I have I have a thought about how I would like to to play things today, which is just that. I would like to start by talking to threads, Heather, which is just to say you're more political, you know, really, really, actively political side. And then eventually, you know, the conversation will start to get more hopeful.
00:03:54:08 - 00:04:01:20
Leslie Carr
But I want to I want to kick us off with a really challenging question, push us right into the deep end of the pool.
00:04:01:22 - 00:04:03:11
Heather White
Sure.
00:04:03:12 - 00:04:27:08
Leslie Carr
The last time that you and I chatted, it was early on in the Biden administration, the last time that I had you on this show. And so there were lots of reasons to be optimistic. New president, perhaps a better, better plan for the environment. And, you know, you have been, as we know, in the climate space for a really long time, worked with al Gore on his presidential bid and also his recount.
00:04:27:10 - 00:04:47:19
Leslie Carr
You and I were saying just the other day that it was a real sliding doors moment for America and for the world when he lost that race. And so my first question for you is, I wonder if you can give me and our listeners just a very frank and sobering assessment of where we are with climate right now.
00:04:47:21 - 00:05:09:09
Heather White
It's really bad. I mean, that is top line. It's really bad. Absolutely. 25 years ago on the campaign, I was inspired to join Gore's campaign because of Earth in the balance. I'm from Tennessee originally. It's why I studied environmental science at the University of Virginia, why I went to law school and became an environmental lawyer. So I had so much hope on that campaign and just thinking.
00:05:09:15 - 00:05:40:22
Heather White
Kyoto, Kyoto Protocol, just all of these international agreements and all this work that we had done internationally. And then when Trump two came in, it was just you can't even say the words climate change and the federal government. So it is really bad. The science is really hard and difficult too. The good news is that we saw in November of 2025 state elections, that and local elections that reaffirmed the commitment to climate change and climate action at the state and local level.
00:05:41:04 - 00:06:04:11
Heather White
And so even though at the national level, we have fallen back, just even with Trump to but certainly looking back 25 years, I mean, we would be on a whole different trajectory if that election in 2000 had gone for Gore. I mean, it was 537 votes, you know, 537 votes made all the difference for the future. It's tough.
00:06:04:11 - 00:06:25:09
Heather White
But that said, even as tough as it is, and we can't sugarcoat it, you know, when when the EPA is saying it no longer has the authority to regulate greenhouse gases, even though the Supreme Court has said that they can. It is really, really tough. The good news is that the international community is moving forward without us, including China.
00:06:25:12 - 00:06:44:08
Heather White
Yeah, they are the number one producer of solar panels in the world. They're doubling down on solar energy. And we've seen that renewable energy has surpassed oil and gas for the first time ever globally. So even though we are losing, losing a lot of ground, the international community is stepping in and moving forward. So that's good.
00:06:44:12 - 00:07:04:19
Leslie Carr
You know, it's something I, I love this about you so much, Heather. It's so funny that, I know that we're going to talk so much about hope and optimism today. There is so much room for hope and optimism. But it's so funny that even as I ask you about the hard part, the sort of pull to talk about the hope comes in so quickly, which I think is really important and really good.
00:07:04:19 - 00:07:24:03
Leslie Carr
And I am not knocking it. But one of the reasons why I want to start with the hard part is just so that the people that are out there that are feeling afraid, maybe feel just validated, not that their fears are real, or that the future is going to be as bad as they are afraid that it might be.
00:07:24:05 - 00:07:53:19
Leslie Carr
But just so that people can kind of hear an honest reflection of where we are right now. So, for example, one of the things that I was thinking about when I was sort of preparing for this conversation is I think about what has been like for me to go from 2000 to 2025. And one of the things that has changed for me is just that at the time, climate change was this thing that seemed like it was going to happen in the future, and now it really feels like it's a thing that's happening now.
00:07:53:21 - 00:08:05:16
Leslie Carr
And so, you know, I don't want to kind of put you in too tough of a position here. But I guess I just wanted to give us a minute to acknowledge the gravity of that for so many folks.
00:08:05:18 - 00:08:28:00
Heather White
It is a complete disaster. The the the Trump administration's approach to climate is a complete disaster. And as far as putting me in uncomfortable situation, as you know, Leslie, until recently, I live with teenagers. Yes, I'm now an empty nest nester, and I promise you, you can't put me in any more difficult situations. So the dinner table.
00:08:28:00 - 00:08:29:17
Leslie Carr
Conversations I've had, I know.
00:08:29:21 - 00:08:47:06
Heather White
About this topic, and that's why I started looking into the mental health impacts of the climate crisis, because my kids were saying, mom, come on, we're running out of time. Where are these older generations? Why are you telling us? You know how great Gen Z is. We can't deal with climate on our own, and we need intergenerational action.
00:08:47:06 - 00:09:10:23
Heather White
We need baby boomers. We need Gen X. We need millennials to really fight with us for our future. And then, as you mentioned, I mean, the LA fires we've had in 2025, the flooding in Texas, which has been devastating, the hurricane that hit Jamaica in September, it it's it's happening at such a rapid pace. And of course, we had Hurricane Helene in Asheville, North Carolina.
00:09:11:01 - 00:09:31:01
Heather White
I had several friends who specifically moved to Asheville, North Carolina, because they thought it was a climate safe area. And we're realizing there's no climate here then, and it doesn't matter how wealthy you are. I mean, obviously the people who have contributed the least amount of carbon pollution are suffering the most in climate justice is really, a really critical issue.
00:09:31:01 - 00:09:49:14
Heather White
But you can't buy yourself out of this issue of climate. So it's very real. To your point, 20 years ago, it may have seemed far off. Now we're seeing the daily impacts of climate, the impacts of intense heat. And if people don't have access to heating and cooling, how they're going to be impacted, it is very scary.
00:09:49:14 - 00:10:12:23
Heather White
It's very scary. And the research, as you know, shows that people are kind of having a reckoning. They're coming to terms with how serious this issue is. And in my view, climate is intersectional. It is. This is the biggest challenge of our collective lifetimes. Everyone is welcome, everyone, and is needed in this movement. But it intersects with income inequality.
00:10:13:04 - 00:10:34:12
Heather White
It intersects with development and intersects with faith issues. It intersects with with gender, you know, you name it. All of the things that we're working towards, climate is at the center of it. And so we have to come together globally and lean into compassion and lean into community. And we are running out of time. I mean, it is grave, it is serious.
00:10:34:12 - 00:10:56:15
Heather White
And I always bump to the hopefulness because as you have taught me, Leslie, through our conversations, when you start with the, how bad it is, a lot of people just freeze and they get caught in this freeze response to what they're experiencing, what they're reading, what they're hearing, and then think, well, I don't matter. Yeah. And so that's kind of why I'm always pivoting.
00:10:56:16 - 00:11:02:01
Heather White
Yeah. But we do have to acknowledge and feel all the feels when it comes to what's at stake. Well, and.
00:11:02:01 - 00:11:22:15
Leslie Carr
I, you know, it's just, it's so, it's so interesting. One of the things that I was thinking about because it does feel important just to say right now, for the record, that despite everything that you're saying, that you do continue to feel hopeful. And we are here to talk about why and how you continue to feel hopeful, because that is the message.
00:11:22:17 - 00:11:52:14
Leslie Carr
And it's it's the message that, I think it's really important and it's really well supported and we're going to get there. But I think one of the reasons why I wanted to start with the hard part, and you're right that perhaps people the risk is that people tune out. But I think the other risk is that if we were to sit here and just talk about how hopeful we are without acknowledging the severity of it, then it kind of looks potentially like we don't really know what we're talking about, whereas you really know what you're talking about.
00:11:52:14 - 00:12:05:07
Leslie Carr
If there is anyone on the face of this planet that knows this subject matter, it is you. So, you know, I just wanted to there's this kind of dance of acknowledging the severity and then also talking about what we can do.
00:12:05:09 - 00:12:34:04
Heather White
To change it, but continuing the line of what's at stake. I think it's really important just to take a minute about the research about how Gen Z are young people born from 1997 to about 2017? They're in there, you know, early like late teens, early 20s right now. Global survey that happened in September 2021. Nearly half of Gen Zers say that eco anxiety or fear about climate interferes with their daily lives.
00:12:34:04 - 00:12:55:05
Heather White
Yeah, and then another survey showed that four out of ten do not want children of their own because they're so worried about the future. We're leaving them. And so I think that shows the the dark part, the severity of what people, especially young people, are looking at and thinking about with respect to the future. And as you know, I think it's also a call to action for all of us to get involved and pivot.
00:12:55:06 - 00:13:20:20
Heather White
But we have to acknowledge that. And I think that's the challenge with young people, because a lot of times, and this is something that I also have learned from you, is that you've got to create space for people to say, is it really this bad? Yeah, it really is this bad. And more and more young people are seeing on social media the impacts of climate disasters from other young people their age on social media.
00:13:20:20 - 00:13:44:17
Heather White
So they're seeing young people on TikTok showing flooding in the country of India. They're seeing drought on the continent of Africa. They're seeing wildfires in Canada from other people their age, almost like kind of citizen journalists and a lot of times they're seeing the pain and suffering more than older generations do. So they they have a very immediate connection to this issue.
00:13:44:18 - 00:14:12:06
Leslie Carr
But before I start asking you questions about hope, there's something that's on my mind that I just want to say, which is that there's a part of me that almost wonders if it needed to get this bad in order for people to start taking action to make a change. It kind of reminds me of like, you know, the OG al Gore frog in the boiling water analogy that we've lived with all these years, where, yes, on the one hand, we have been the frog in the boiling water.
00:14:12:06 - 00:14:25:10
Leslie Carr
Things have been getting steadily worse. But whereas we maybe used to be able to debate whether or not climate change was real, is it can we debate this anymore? I mean, we are I mean, I mean, people do.
00:14:25:12 - 00:14:44:03
Heather White
Yes. You know, I hear what you're saying. I think my reaction would be like, no, because to your point, in 2000, if 537 votes in Florida had gone the other way, I think we would have been on a very different path now globally. I can't say for sure, but I do think the U.S. leadership would have been different.
00:14:44:08 - 00:15:10:04
Heather White
But I think it is a way to look at it, to say that, you know, the impacts of climate are here and now. And so it is harder to ignore. And then, you know, even people who don't accept that oil and gas and our reliance on fossil fuels are the main reason why we're dealing with this issue, even though their own documents show from the 1920s, 30s, 40s and 50s that they knew they knew their product would cause this harm, which is a whole nother conversation.
00:15:10:06 - 00:15:20:06
Heather White
Even people who reject that, they are saying, well, the climate is changing, so more and more people are seeing the impacts of these extreme weather events. Yeah.
00:15:20:08 - 00:15:37:21
Leslie Carr
So all of that said, you know, just to sort of establish a base layer for this conversation, you know, you have been saying all this time that it's not too late. You are still saying that it's not too late. And I wanted to maybe we can sort of shift over to Instagram. Heather.
00:15:37:23 - 00:15:40:14
Heather White
Yeah. Threads. Heather may come back at any point.
00:15:40:14 - 00:15:41:05
Leslie Carr
I just.
00:15:41:05 - 00:15:41:20
Heather White
She's like.
00:15:41:20 - 00:15:56:10
Leslie Carr
Exactly. She's just going to she might kind of keep making a periodic appearance, but we'll sort of shimmy over to Instagram. Heather, tell me what what helps you to keep your chin up here? What keeps you working on this? What enables you to keep feeling hopeful?
00:15:56:12 - 00:16:20:14
Heather White
We have all of the technical solutions to solve climate and it is shifting to renewable energy, solar and wind. It is, you know, doing all we can to reform animal agriculture, shift to sustainable and regenerative agriculture. Be mindful of having more plant based diets. There are all kinds of other other solutions out there that are just readily available refrigerants.
00:16:20:14 - 00:16:55:14
Heather White
I can totally geek out. As you know, it's all there. But what's missing is the political will. Yeah, we need our politicians to hold companies accountable. And we have seen and I'm going to go back to Trump 2.0. And I just want to be really clear. I'm talking my personal capacity when I'm talking about this political situation. But we have seen and Trump 2.0 companies bend the knee to this administration and this idea that like saying climate or talking about diversity and equity and inclusion, which of course is connected to climate is just woke is ridiculous.
00:16:55:14 - 00:17:29:11
Heather White
It's good business. It's good business. Having a diverse workforce. It's good business being sustainable. You save money if you have energy efficiency, you know, at your workplace, if you recycle, it is smart business to be sustainable and that's been lost in this, political environment we are in right now. But we've been in difficult political environments before. One of the things, though, is pretty, I would say disheartening for me is that environmentalism has been widely supported by both political parties in the United States throughout our history.
00:17:29:11 - 00:17:58:16
Heather White
It was Richard Nixon in 1970 who created the Environmental Protection Agency. The Land and Water Conservation Fund. Supporting our public lands has been broadly supported by Americans. Of all of the political persuasions, like 85% of Americans believe in parks and in our other public lands, federal at the state level, they're passionate about these issues. So we've kind of lost that in the last, I would say, just, gosh, I can't believe, you know, because it's 2025 right now.
00:17:58:20 - 00:18:09:21
Heather White
It's been, you know, the last year. But it seems like really the last ten years that that plot in that thread has been lost. Yeah. About how much the public supports our public lands and access to public lands.
00:18:09:23 - 00:18:31:05
Leslie Carr
Yeah. It's really confusing to me. I would love to see if you can help me to understand this. I think one of the things I find so confusing is that as wind and solar are becoming cheaper and more plentiful, it stands to reason to me. I mean, isn't it less expensive than petroleum at this point? Like, why are we so addicted to petroleum?
00:18:31:07 - 00:18:36:23
Leslie Carr
Like even for the energy companies, why can't they pivot? Isn't it less expensive potentially for them to be.
00:18:36:23 - 00:18:58:01
Heather White
Potentially, but not yet. So potentially it's less expensive. But the infrastructure we've been subsidizing we I mean, the United States tax papers, you know, since the early 1900s, we've been subsidizing the infrastructure for oil and gas company with all kinds of, tax credits and investments, whether it be pipelines, whether it be permitting, whether it be credits themselves.
00:18:58:07 - 00:19:17:07
Heather White
So the infrastructure that we have for oil and gas makes it to a point where it is cheaper, but over time renewable because it's renewable will become because we're talking about a finite resource with oil and gas, because it's renewable. It will be it's not quite there, but it will be. And we are really close to a tipping point.
00:19:17:09 - 00:19:39:10
Heather White
We're not you know, we had a lot of investments in, gosh, I'm going to geek out again. The Inflation Reduction Act under the Biden administration that was going to jumpstart renewables, and put it on a much faster pace, but that has been rescinded and I would argue illegally by the Trump administration. So there has been some progress that's been delayed.
00:19:39:12 - 00:19:49:07
Heather White
But we're going to get there. It's inevitable. And even energy companies now, they're investing in renewables too. They know it. But the profit margins are very different right now okay. For them.
00:19:49:07 - 00:20:14:18
Leslie Carr
And I take it just to make sure that I'm understanding this, that it's basically it would or it will be less expensive once the investments are made to make sure the infrastructure is rivaling what we have for oil and gas, but we need to make those investments first. And then where the incentives get a little wonky is, you know, incentivizing companies like ExxonMobil to make the investment that they would need to make in order to divert their.
00:20:14:22 - 00:20:41:13
Heather White
And I would also say, hold them accountable for what they've known about their product and how is harming communities and going to ultimately lead to higher temperatures. They know and and we're seeing more and more litigation, kind of similar to the back tobacco litigation that's using climate and using oil companies, just like the tobacco companies knew that they were creating an addictive product that oil and gas companies knew decades ago that their product was having this global impact on our weather and on our atmosphere.
00:20:41:18 - 00:20:53:03
Heather White
So I think that's important. And I think this conversation, even Leslie, shows how when I talk about hope, I'm talking about the solutions. And the solutions are there. What we need is for our politics, our culture to.
00:20:53:03 - 00:20:54:08
Leslie Carr
Yeah, I was just about to go there.
00:20:54:08 - 00:21:15:15
Heather White
Yeah, but what happens is a lot of times people like me and, you know, I like I'm a walk. You know, we immediately start talking about renewables and oh my gosh, like public lands and nature is actually a climate solution. And soil is really important in carbon credits. And we forget about asking the most important question, which is who are you?
00:21:15:17 - 00:21:37:19
Heather White
Yeah. And what do you want your legacy to be and what future are we leaving the next generation? And I think that, I just it's our tendency. It's our tendency, but that is what gives me hope. The solutions give me hope. And I do feel like the politics is going to change. We will have not. We will have a generational change of leadership very soon.
00:21:37:23 - 00:21:52:12
Heather White
And that generational change is going to bring new ideas. It is going to bring the innovation, and it is going to help us turn on that or create that tipping point for all to unlock all this possibility and a clean energy future.
00:21:52:14 - 00:21:53:02
Leslie Carr
Amen.
00:21:53:06 - 00:21:54:05
Heather White
Yeah.
00:21:54:07 - 00:22:18:10
Leslie Carr
So there's a little bit of a bridge that I want to create. Maybe some dots that I want to connect. And what you're saying, I'm thinking about this point that you're making about, energy companies and the role they've played in this and how much we need them to change. And I'm thinking about, you know, so much of what you talk about going back to this idea of, you know, who are you and what do you want your legacy to be?
00:22:18:10 - 00:22:22:01
Leslie Carr
So much of what we talk about with one green thing has to do with creating a culture change.
00:22:22:01 - 00:22:23:00
Heather White
Yes.
00:22:23:02 - 00:22:45:11
Leslie Carr
And I think something that I just want to really highlight for the listener, because it's so important here, is that we were sold a false bill of goods for a long time, that if we could just recycle and, you know, I don't know, make positive choices around the cars that we drive and whether they're gas or electric or hybrid or, you know, are we bringing our own bags to the grocery store?
00:22:45:12 - 00:23:05:00
Leslie Carr
You know, all of these individual behavior changes that do matter? A lot of pressure was put on us for a long time, as if that was the thing that was going to make the difference, right? It's like the equivalent of the plastic company telling you to recycle your plastic, as if the recycling is the thing that's going to make the difference, as opposed to them maybe just not putting their products in plastic.
00:23:05:02 - 00:23:28:15
Leslie Carr
But as you and I talk about this, and we have been talking about this for a long time, you know, that one of the things that's really important about this stuff is raising awareness and making those behavioral changes so that we can put pressure on the people who are in positions of power to make different decisions. Right? That it's in the same way that I'm asking a question like, why are energy companies refusing to make the change around fossil fuels?
00:23:28:15 - 00:23:47:23
Leslie Carr
Why don't they want to invest in wind and solar? Well, they would be more incentivized to put to invest in wind and solar if the culture of the people at large were putting pressure on them to, to make it so. So I you know, I do have a couple questions for you, but before I even is there anything that you want to just say or respond to around that before?
00:23:48:01 - 00:24:07:01
Heather White
I would just say that's beautifully stated. I think what happens in the environmental community, a lot of times people say individual change versus systemic change or people are like, we just need systemic change. We need policy change. And other folks are saying, well, how? I'm just, you know, for example, you know, my kid is like, I'm 18 years old, 18 years old.
00:24:07:01 - 00:24:26:21
Heather White
I live in Bozeman, Montana. How am I supposed to get the United States Senate to do something right? Yeah. And so I think it's both. And we have to have these policy solutions. We have to have more incentives. The investment in renewable energy, we need to have more of these policies that are promoting this path. But it only comes from the culture change.
00:24:26:21 - 00:24:49:00
Heather White
The individual action drives the culture change. And you just said this beautifully, Leslie, but I think what I'll add is think this idea of an individual carbon footprint was actually created by PR companies for the oil and gas industry, as this idea of kind of shifting the burden to us, we did not create the climate crisis. Oil and gas companies did, and they knew.
00:24:49:02 - 00:25:00:18
Heather White
They knew, and they're still fighting it. But they know the writing's on the wall. They know they're going to have to shift. They are shifting in renewables, but they're going to use, you know, they're going to what do they call it, squeeze the turnip is that.
00:25:00:20 - 00:25:03:20
Leslie Carr
I have I have never heard the expression before. But you know, something.
00:25:03:20 - 00:25:29:18
Heather White
There's some there's some idiom. There's some idiom thinking, where they're just going to try to get all they can out of it while they can. Yeah, but even people who work there, even I know many like, actually know many people who work in oil and gas companies. They're not bad people, right? They're doing what they can to create energy for all of us to charge our phones, to have hospitals with lights and computers that help us and all of these things, that is their their mission.
00:25:29:18 - 00:25:49:00
Heather White
And they see it kind of as a balancing test. But even they believe in clean air and clean water, you know. Right. So but but the reason I was going on that path was just to make sure that we understand that that individual carbon footprint isn't where we need to focus our energy. Although you can make an impact, especially if we all do it.
00:25:49:00 - 00:25:57:06
Heather White
But think of your individual action more is driving that culture change because sometimes people get caught up like, oh, I use this mug. But then I found it has lead in it.
00:25:57:06 - 00:25:57:18
Leslie Carr
Yeah.
00:25:57:20 - 00:26:02:19
Heather White
So I need to go to bamboo. And then I heard, well, maybe bamboo isn't right. And then people get a freeze response again.
00:26:02:21 - 00:26:03:05
Leslie Carr
So just.
00:26:03:05 - 00:26:05:18
Heather White
Keep trying. That intention does matter with the culture shift.
00:26:05:20 - 00:26:26:06
Leslie Carr
Thank you for that. Because I think you're, you're saying exactly what I think I need to hear, and I imagine is probably what our listeners, viewers need to hear is just that there has been this crazy making thing around feeling like if we just stopped using plastic straws, that's the thing that would make the difference. But it's not the thing that makes the difference.
00:26:26:06 - 00:26:54:23
Leslie Carr
Like, I know from what you've told me in the past that the single most important thing that we can do related to climate change is vote yes. But in order for us to do that, we have to understand what it is that we're voting for with the people that we're voting for. Where do they stand? You know, I so it's just interesting to think about the role that our consciousness plays in this whole situation.
00:26:55:03 - 00:27:06:19
Leslie Carr
But it's not just about skipping the straw. It's about being informed enough to understand the decisions that you're making on a bigger level and the ecosystem that that sort of falls into.
00:27:07:00 - 00:27:17:22
Heather White
Oh, beautifully, said Leslie. Absolutely. And if I could just add about the straw example, because my kids do like to kind of give me an eyeroll when I'm like, yes, I'll have some iced tea. No straw please.
00:27:17:23 - 00:27:18:23
Leslie Carr
Yeah, yeah. You know.
00:27:18:23 - 00:27:26:14
Heather White
Like, oh, Bravo, mom, you have saved the planet. No straw. Please. In that tone too. Like they do a great impersonation.
00:27:26:14 - 00:27:27:17
Leslie Carr
I can, mom, I can a.
00:27:27:17 - 00:28:00:05
Heather White
Straw, please. But the thing is, and I think this is important for people to know because so many people have said no straw, please. Or I want a different material for my take out. And I take out. Or why am I see? Why are you using this plastic bag here? Those individual actions have resulted in conversations at the United Nations about a global treaty to reduce or eliminate single use plastic, and that only happens when, you know, hundreds of millions of people around the world are saying, no, I don't want this.
00:28:00:05 - 00:28:18:07
Heather White
There has to be an alternative when people, you know, go on a beach vacation and see litter everywhere and see plastic when they're snorkeling, you know, when they at the more aware people get and the more they start talking about it. That culture shift results in global treaties, or at least global treaty discussions. And I think ultimately we will get there.
00:28:18:10 - 00:28:25:09
Heather White
So the individual action does matter. But just like you said, I think a lot of us want to be like, there, I did it. Yeah, you're doing your part.
00:28:25:09 - 00:28:25:16
Leslie Carr
Yes.
00:28:25:16 - 00:28:31:06
Heather White
And acknowledging you do what you can with the information you have. And when the information changes, you shift your behavior.
00:28:31:06 - 00:28:31:12
Leslie Carr
Yeah.
00:28:31:12 - 00:28:32:23
Heather White
It's actually that simple. Yes.
00:28:32:23 - 00:29:02:03
Leslie Carr
Yeah. And then I'm thinking about the role that Hope plays in that revolution of consciousness. Because it's hard to make a change, small or large, whether you're getting rid of the no straw please. Thanks, mom. You know, whether you're doing that, whether you're, calling your representative, whatever it is that you're doing, there is a mediating variable here, and that mediating variable is hope.
00:29:02:05 - 00:29:20:16
Leslie Carr
And you said something fleetingly a while back, which was just that. I think the way you put it is time is running out. It is, but not the time is out. It is not too late. No, the time is now a way that I'll maybe sort of reframe time is running out is time is the time is now.
00:29:20:16 - 00:29:22:03
Heather White
Yes.
00:29:22:05 - 00:29:41:11
Leslie Carr
And so I want to talk to you about hope and hopefulness and how you sustain it and, and the role that it plays in the revolution, because it's interesting to think of it as a, a revolutionary act to continue to feel optimistic in the face of what it is that's going on.
00:29:41:13 - 00:29:51:00
Heather White
Okay. I think, as my kids would say, that's deep. What you just said, Leslie, was deep. It's a revolutionary act to feel.
00:29:51:03 - 00:29:55:22
Leslie Carr
I love the role that your children play in. Oh, yeah, in everything that you do.
00:29:55:23 - 00:30:16:10
Heather White
If you think I'm getting too big for my britches, I promise you, they. They keep it real. They keep it real for me, for sure. And I've learned a lot from them and from their lived experience. It's so different than when I was growing up and when you were growing up, just very, very different. And I think that this revolutionary act of hope.
00:30:16:12 - 00:30:32:03
Heather White
Oh. A couple things that keep me going. One is a daily practice. And as you know, I call it a daily practice of a one green thing. It's so simple. It was very scary for someone who is a lawyer and a policy person who did politics to say, okay, okay, you guys have this idea. We're going to do one thing every day for the planet.
00:30:32:03 - 00:30:52:19
Heather White
You know, it was just this leap of of faith. And, you know, Harpercollins, my publisher, is like, yeah, people need something really simple, but it's an idea of a one green thing. It's a daily practice of doing one thing intentionally for the planet and for the next generation. So that daily practice has helped me because I'm exercising agency over this overwhelming issue and it's reduced my anxiety.
00:30:52:19 - 00:30:53:18
Heather White
Well, you before you.
00:30:53:22 - 00:30:59:07
Leslie Carr
Go any further, will you give us some examples? What are some of the things that you do and what some of the things that you recommend other people do?
00:30:59:11 - 00:31:23:04
Heather White
Oh that's great. I think one of the most important things is a walk outside spending time outside. One of my favorite authors is Anne Lamott, and she has a great quote, go outside, look up Secret to Life and just even five minutes outside. Peer reviewed scientific studies show that it reduces reduces the stress hormone cortisol. It reduces your blood pressure and increases a sense of overall well-being.
00:31:23:04 - 00:31:28:14
Heather White
So connecting to nature. And I love that the name of your show, it's very in the.
00:31:28:14 - 00:31:30:08
Leslie Carr
Nature of us, it works, right. Well it.
00:31:30:08 - 00:31:50:09
Heather White
Really does. So time in nature I think is really important because it is healing and a reminder of of connecting to something larger than yourself, but also what's worth protecting. So I think that's the first thing. The second, of course, is, you know, because of my background, I'm in Montana now but lived in DC for so many years is 202 to 2 43121, which has been capital.
00:31:50:13 - 00:32:00:10
Leslie Carr
One more time. So we're going to put it on the screen (202) 224-3121. And the way you say it I just could it's the Capitol Hill switchboard.
00:32:00:10 - 00:32:16:18
Heather White
Yeah. And you enter in your zip code and they'll connect you to your representative, even if you have no idea who your representative is. And you can talk to your member of the House of Representatives, you can leave a message for your senators. And I do that regularly on all kinds of issues. And am I going to change my senator's mind?
00:32:16:18 - 00:32:22:17
Heather White
I live in Montana. They do not agree with a lot of the things that I agree with, but it makes I am participating.
00:32:22:17 - 00:32:37:05
Leslie Carr
And one thing I want to say really quickly, just because there are a lot of people out there that will not pick up a phone, especially younger generation people, they are phone averse. You can also email your representative if you do some googling. Yeah, one of my representatives is Adam Schiff. Email him all the time and credit to his office.
00:32:37:05 - 00:32:55:16
Leslie Carr
I don't know how many representatives do this, but I always get a response and the response is thoughtful. I'm sure they have a team of sure it's coming directly from yes, Adam, but you know, I get a response that is thoughtful about my message. And, you know, he and I tend to be aligned on things. So that's not you know, it's it's but.
00:32:55:18 - 00:32:56:13
Heather White
Don't take it for granted.
00:32:56:13 - 00:33:03:19
Leslie Carr
But and I and I do not but I just wanted to put it out there since some people are like I'm never going to call that number. You can also email.
00:33:03:21 - 00:33:18:23
Heather White
I love that. Yes, you can email it. And I'll say, as someone who worked on Capitol Hill, I worked for a senator. I worked for Senator Russ Feingold of Wisconsin of like, McCain-Feingold, the campaign finance legislation which a lot of people know of. He's amazing. He was incredible. He was a leader in the Wilderness Caucus. I love working for him.
00:33:19:04 - 00:33:34:16
Heather White
He looked at every response. So even though we were a team of people advising and helping send the emails, it was all driven by him. And he every day he and most members of Congress get the number of calls on particular issues. Yeah. And the number of letters. And it does make a difference.
00:33:34:17 - 00:33:37:04
Leslie Carr
So important for people to know that. I just.
00:33:37:04 - 00:33:37:17
Heather White
Really.
00:33:37:17 - 00:33:57:10
Leslie Carr
Want to emphasize that, because I think it's especially important coming from someone like you with your background, where you have this first person knowledge that that this works. You know, I think one of the things that's really important, even about whether it's a phone call or an email, even if you are under the impression that your representative agrees with you, it's important to let them know that you're with them.
00:33:57:12 - 00:34:06:19
Leslie Carr
You want them to keep their spine strong. Like it. I think it's just important for citizens of a democracy, which we still are by the skin of our teeth.
00:34:06:20 - 00:34:07:13
Heather White
Absolutely.
00:34:07:13 - 00:34:14:06
Leslie Carr
It's important for people to know that their voice literally does matter when it comes to it does.
00:34:14:06 - 00:34:39:00
Heather White
And a lot of times I'm calling my members who disagree with me on most things I see. Yeah. And even that accountability, that conversation of I see you, I see the destruction of the East Wing of the white House with complete, you know, complete denial of environmental laws, historic preservation laws. What's up with the asbestos? And we know there's asbestos in the white House.
00:34:39:00 - 00:35:02:06
Heather White
How are you protecting people? Not to mention just the reckless disregard for our house. Like that doesn't seem like an environmental issue, but it is. But I was able to say to my members, I see you and I hear you saying nothing about it. And even that is really it's an important part of our democracy. So even if you were in a, in a red state like I am right now, that may not be aligned on these environmental issues.
00:35:02:08 - 00:35:20:15
Heather White
Although I would argue when it comes to public lands, that's not true because my members who I don't align with really did fight back on a recent attempt to sell public lands, and I thank them for that. I think that's an important part, too. As I said, look, we don't agree on a lot of things, but I just want to say thank you for standing up and thank you for making sure that this didn't happen.
00:35:20:17 - 00:35:28:19
Heather White
It was hard for me to thank them because it was like, you know, thanking someone for not stealing money. But that's okay, I did.
00:35:28:19 - 00:35:29:13
Leslie Carr
I said, thank you for.
00:35:29:13 - 00:35:32:11
Heather White
Doing it because the things are so weird, like, thank you for protecting public.
00:35:32:11 - 00:35:34:03
Leslie Carr
Lands. They shouldn't be all weird.
00:35:34:03 - 00:35:50:22
Heather White
Yeah, exactly. Small wins. And then I think other, other things that people can do for one green thing are composting. Gosh, I know that sounds so detailed, but it really is a lot of fun. There's all kinds of ways to do it now. We finally got community composting in Montana, but I also had a backyard compost that I did.
00:35:51:00 - 00:35:57:12
Heather White
I know this is like the least sexy one green thing ever. Menu. Planning to try to reduce food waste? Yeah, I know it's.
00:35:57:12 - 00:35:59:21
Leslie Carr
Hot dirty to me. Heather, you planning?
00:36:00:02 - 00:36:16:00
Heather White
But just figuring out how to even use your leftover vegetables? Throw them in a frittata. Just being mindful of food waste. 8% of global carbon emissions come from food waste and a lot of people, when you think when you throw your your food items in the trash, you just think, well, it decomposes. So it's not a big deal.
00:36:16:00 - 00:36:36:11
Heather White
It does decompose, but if it goes to a landfill, it releases methane gas, which is a greenhouse gas that's 87 times more powerful than carbon dioxide. So you really want to try to compost, if you can. In California, obviously it's a lot easier than in other states, but that's a great thing you can do. So, you know, compost mini planning, switching to green energy when you can.
00:36:36:11 - 00:36:52:14
Heather White
And yes, going with the EV car, I think that is going to be our future. We've we had a huge incentives to make that transition in the last couple of years. But with this new administration that's on hold. But we'll get there. We'll get there. We will see the EV infrastructure happen for sure.
00:36:52:15 - 00:37:09:20
Leslie Carr
Kind of thing, but two different things at the same time. But but I'm going to start with this one because I'm thinking about the notion of a one green thing and the notion of a culture change. And, by the way, I at the our board meeting this morning, I came up with a phrase that I think that we should put on some mugs or t shirts, which is make hope cool again.
00:37:09:23 - 00:37:11:00
Leslie Carr
Oh, I love it.
00:37:11:00 - 00:37:12:07
Heather White
Yes, I love it.
00:37:12:07 - 00:37:41:13
Leslie Carr
You heard it here first. Yeah, but it's interesting to sort of think that it with everything that you're listing, whether it's, you know, menu planning, composting, I'm thinking about kind of broad cultural changes because I'm even thinking about the nature of minimalism versus consumption. And for so long we have lived in a culture and in a society that is very consumer driven, very capitalist, sort of stating the obvious there.
00:37:41:15 - 00:38:07:08
Leslie Carr
But as people are thinking a lot right now about, sort of voting with their wallets and wanting to make, sort of decisions that are in keeping with their values and that kind of stuff. It feels like being mindful about your consumption is really important. Like, I feel like one of the things that we need to make a lot cooler is wearing things that are pre worn or, you know, like wearing thrifting.
00:38:07:08 - 00:38:15:00
Leslie Carr
Hand me down. So like making use of, you know, a network in a community of people to give things to each other. So I just.
00:38:15:04 - 00:38:28:19
Heather White
Yes. And I think that I was going to say that is one of the things that's really helped me in this revolutionary action of hope is this daily practice of the one green thing and the way that fits with me, based on what I would call the service superpower, which I know we're going to talk about in a little bit.
00:38:28:21 - 00:38:52:16
Heather White
And the second is community and community. I love that, like there are a lot now a lot of libraries are hosting repair clinics where you can bring things in, like a jacket that doesn't have a zipper. And someone who happens to be a great seamstress will help you find a zipper and fix it. Or if you have, you know, a camera that is an old camera that you'd like to get working again or something that just you don't want to let go of but can repair.
00:38:52:16 - 00:38:54:09
Leslie Carr
Also, just some neat way.
00:38:54:09 - 00:39:17:23
Heather White
To build community as a repair clinic. You know, there's also opportunities for more community potlucks that are plant based, even if you want to go there. And then, you know, the public library. Talk about revolutionary. I think I saw a meme that said, if someone had presented the idea of creating a public building and providing classes, internet access, and books for free, but now it would be like controversial.
00:39:18:01 - 00:39:33:15
Heather White
But our public library system is a hub for community and instead of buying books, checking them out of the library, going to a lot of those programs, creating programing there, it's really pretty incredible. So I think the daily practice, but also community has been really helpful.
00:39:33:15 - 00:40:02:12
Leslie Carr
I love that. So I want to I want to double back for a hot second. This is maybe we're going to sort of go back to threads, Heather for a moment because bring it. You said something that to me is giving me what I think is a good question. If somebody were to call their representatives right now about something specifically climate related, given something that either the Trump administration is doing or they see their Republican representatives, snoozing on, you know, not not taking appropriate action.
00:40:02:12 - 00:40:10:02
Leslie Carr
What is something in general that someone could call their representative about right now and demand.
00:40:10:04 - 00:40:35:09
Heather White
That's a great question, Leslie. All kinds of things. A headline, it could be, for example, the roadless Rule. This is kind of technical, but basically there are a lot of areas near wilderness areas that are public lands that don't have roads. And, motorized vehicles are not allowed that this administration, even though this has been the law of the land for 20 years, wants to undo that.
00:40:35:09 - 00:40:58:03
Heather White
So a lot of wilderness, may have motorized vehicles, may have more developments living in a place like Montana we really care about that gets grizzly bear habitat, etc.. This may seem like too specific, but you could just call and say, hey, I want you to protect wild lands in America. And I see that there are proposals from this administration and legislation in the Senate that's not our values.
00:40:58:03 - 00:41:25:00
Heather White
And whatever state you live in, I just want to go on record saying, I'm going to urge you to oppose that. The other thing you can do is, I mean, let's talk about the treatment of federal workers right now. You know, and just in general and the federal government, whether it be the EPA, whether it be the Department of Interior, the Department of Agriculture, you could just call in general and say, I'm really worried about how we're treating people who work for public lands.
00:41:25:01 - 00:41:47:21
Heather White
We need to protect public lands. But also, I want my taxpayer dollars to fund people that steward those lands. I mean, that's an example. And of course, I mean child nutrition. Whether it be public education, it doesn't have to be specific. But the more specific you are, the helpful if you say H.R. 2433 or whatever it is like, I'd like for you to support that bill that is helpful for the legislative staff.
00:41:47:21 - 00:41:53:03
Heather White
But you can just say sweeping strokes. This is what I believe, and I hope that you believe it, too.
00:41:53:05 - 00:42:26:03
Leslie Carr
One of the things that that's making me think about right now, because it's interesting to think that someone could watch this at any point in the future. And then there's, you know, whatever is current for them at the time. But it makes me think about the importance of doing enough research about your own local area, your your state and more narrow kind of municipality to actually understand what's on the books where you are, because I think what happens for a lot of people is we just were inundated with kind of federal news, and then a lot of people are not actually, very well informed about what's happening for them locally.
00:42:26:03 - 00:42:28:13
Leslie Carr
They don't know what's happening with their local habitat. They don't.
00:42:28:13 - 00:42:49:22
Heather White
So that is such a great opportunity to make change. A lot of these city commissions or, sustainability commissions or zoning commissions, water utilities, they have all these opportunities for public comment and no one shows. So if you go with like two friends, you know, you can really sway people and make a big difference.
00:42:49:22 - 00:42:50:11
Leslie Carr
Yeah.
00:42:50:13 - 00:43:07:20
Heather White
With respect to where things are going in, in your neighborhood, but there's so much opportunity to get involved. Everything from historic preservation to water quality to public parks, to clean energy, whatever your interest is and your talent is, you can plug in locally and at the state level for sure.
00:43:07:22 - 00:43:21:08
Leslie Carr
I think that's a really nice, nice transition to the service super power assessment because I'm thinking about like, what are people's unique kind of gifts and interests. Would you like to start by just telling people what it is?
00:43:21:10 - 00:43:44:08
Heather White
Sure. So one of the things I realized in all of my work in environmental policy and law and advocacy is that a lot of times, as wonks, we start the conversation with the what with the solutions, you know, do this, not that compost thrift, you know, repair, you know, share those types of solutions rather than asking the most important question.
00:43:44:08 - 00:44:04:03
Heather White
And that is the who. Who are you? Who are you in service? How do you want to show up for the people that you love? And what do you want your personal legacy to be? Because all of the individual behavioral psychology that I've read has showed that people are more likely to change their habits if that connects to their sense of identity, of who they are.
00:44:04:05 - 00:44:24:12
Heather White
And so having that kind of internal, self-reflective opportunity about who you are and what your gifts are provides this great opportunity for people then to see themselves like we talk about the who, and then we go to the what. And so this assessment is a five minute online tool. It's a one green thing.org. It asks who are you in service?
00:44:24:12 - 00:44:37:09
Heather White
How do you show up for your friends. And then there's seven different archetypes. It's a little bit like Enneagram, Myers-Briggs for example, and it helps you identify your strengths and service. And then I match you to a one green thing based on that.
00:44:37:12 - 00:44:54:03
Leslie Carr
I love it. So I just want to tell people a little bit about what the types are. Great. I'll talk about this just a tiny bit. So there are seven different types. Yes, eco anxiety, saving our sanity, our kids and our future. Will you tell us a little bit about the types and and what kind of what they're known for and what they do?
00:44:54:07 - 00:44:57:12
Leslie Carr
Yes, other than the wonk, you've already talked a little bit about the what what I want to hear about the other side.
00:44:57:13 - 00:45:19:12
Heather White
Sure. Thanks, Leslie. So there's seven different archetypes. The first is the adventurer who braces the physicality of the outdoors. They love taking people outside their comfort zones. They're really important in the movement to kind of see what's possible. The second is the beacon, which is kind of what you think about when you think about a climate activist. You give them a bullhorn and some poster board and markers, and they're ready to speak truth to power.
00:45:19:16 - 00:45:31:14
Heather White
The third is the influencer, which my Gen Zers give me a hard time because I don't mean like the influencer, I mean the people person, the connector who loves to connect the latest brands, to connect people with each other. Really important to.
00:45:31:19 - 00:45:32:19
Leslie Carr
Share the message.
00:45:32:19 - 00:45:50:15
Heather White
And share the message. Exactly. That's really key. Then there's The philanthropist, which is all about the gifts. Again, a big word, but it's the giver, the person who, like, makes a Spotify playlist for you or, you know, a mixtape. I would say a mixtape because of my generation. You know, if you're not feeling well or brings you soup, you know, a donates their time and resources.
00:45:50:19 - 00:46:10:22
Heather White
Then there is the sage that's focused on the spiritual connection to nature. Then we have the spark, which is kind of the plus one. Or the cheerleader who's like, sure, I'll go with you to that event. And then finally there's the walk. So those are the seven different archetypes. And then based on what your gifts are in service, I then match you to a daily practice of sustainability based on that profile.
00:46:11:00 - 00:46:11:13
Leslie Carr
Brilliant.
00:46:11:13 - 00:46:12:16
Heather White
Yeah, it's very cool.
00:46:12:16 - 00:46:29:11
Leslie Carr
One of the things that I think is really important about it, and I just want to kind of give it a shout out for this reason, is that it is not just about climate. I think this is true of any kind of political activism, anything. I think one of the things that oftentimes people get stuck around is feeling like they need to be doing everything.
00:46:29:11 - 00:46:45:18
Leslie Carr
You need to be sort of donating money and also protesting. And it's not to say, you know, do as much as you can, but not everybody is built for that stuff. You know, some people maybe are introverted and afraid of crowds. Maybe they're not going to be the best protester. Doesn't mean that they can't take action someplace else.
00:46:45:18 - 00:47:04:14
Leslie Carr
So they can't sort of let their gifts shine another way. So I think there's something really valuable about people understanding their own gifts and how they can best contribute so that they don't feel bad about what they're not doing. It's like, focus on what you can do, right? You don't. We don't have to be doing everything.
00:47:04:15 - 00:47:28:20
Heather White
Exactly. You don't have to be all things to all people. I think you just really clearly laid it out. Leslie, I have a good friend who really wants to be the person who does, free climbing and wants to go kayaking and say that they did, like a five day backpacking trip. And when I told them that they could throw a party for a nonprofit that they love for the environment, they were like, oh my God, thank you.
00:47:28:20 - 00:47:42:15
Heather White
Like, yeah, I can be part of this movement. I don't have to be, you know, the extreme outdoors person in order to be able to do this or I don't have to protest. I'm not comfortable. As you said, there's all these different ways that you can show up that's authentic to you.
00:47:42:15 - 00:47:58:13
Leslie Carr
Exactly. Yeah. And play to your strengths and your gas. Right. So, you know, I would be remiss if we did not talk about this. So I think we can kind of start to wrap up here. But you are about to give a Ted talk. And by the time this interview goes live, people will be able to see it.
00:47:58:13 - 00:48:20:06
Leslie Carr
Yes, it's going to be pretty short. It's only going to be about five minutes long. But it's, in my opinion, extremely impactful. Thank you. So I want to talk to you a little bit about that message. Will you will you tell people a little bit about just, you know, you don't have to give the talk, but like tell people what it's about and what lights you up around it and kind of how you came up with this idea and what you're sharing in this talk.
00:48:20:08 - 00:48:42:13
Heather White
Thank you, Leslie, and thank you so much for your input and your help. As I was kind of trying to kind of get crystallize, the message of this talk. So I write about eco anxiety. Obviously, that's the title of my book, but other terms are climate anxieties, solar climate grief, climate doom, kind of this feeling, this overwhelming feeling and fear people have, especially young people about the future.
00:48:42:15 - 00:48:51:00
Heather White
And I like to say, if you don't have eco anxiety, you're probably not paying attention. You know, for all the reasons that we've talked about in this conversation.
00:48:51:00 - 00:48:51:21
Leslie Carr
So unfortunately.
00:48:51:21 - 00:49:21:19
Heather White
Dress like more and more people are connecting the dots. So the idea of this conversation was that eco anxiety is a message from our future selves. And I was just really interested in this idea of maybe this feeling of anxiety that we have isn't about doom. Maybe our future selves are trying to tell us something different. Yeah, maybe they're trying to tell us that we need to tap into our creativity, and that we need to really think about long term thinking.
00:49:21:19 - 00:49:28:19
Heather White
This idea of long term ism, this idea that we could be good ancestors and really diving into that.
00:49:28:19 - 00:49:47:00
Leslie Carr
So this talk and if I may, I'll just say this really quickly that, that that feeling of anxiety in this frame, which I think is really valuable, is almost more of a wake up call or a call to action than a feeling of impending doom, per se. Yes, even if we often think that that's what that means.
00:49:47:00 - 00:49:47:13
Heather White
Yes.
00:49:47:13 - 00:49:48:16
Leslie Carr
But. So you were. Yes.
00:49:48:16 - 00:50:00:19
Heather White
Yeah, that's exactly right. It's a it's a wake up call for us. And our future selves are trying to communicate with us, but not necessarily what we think it's more of a, hey, yes, you need to act.
00:50:01:00 - 00:50:02:13
Leslie Carr
Like wake up. The time is now.
00:50:02:13 - 00:50:25:04
Heather White
But also there are all these opportunities. Yeah, there's opportunities to be creative and to imagine what's possible because I feel like in the environmental movement, and I certainly have done this many times in my career, we just want to keep saying, wake up, wake up, look, look, look, look. It's so bad, it's so bad, it's so bad without offering what the possibilities are, what is the healthier, greener, more just future of look like.
00:50:25:06 - 00:50:49:12
Heather White
So this talk is about time travel and it's about meeting your future self. And what is your future self trying to tell you about what life can be like. And that the takeaway is that it's telling you that we can do this, but we really need to start connecting and really engaging our creativity about what's possible.
00:50:49:14 - 00:51:23:13
Leslie Carr
Yeah, I think one of the things that's really important about this, really, really important about it, is that people just get if you think about the nature of Doomscrolling and even the movies that get made these days and that kind of stuff, people get really inundated in, in bad news and in future visions of worst case scenarios. Like, I think that even if you look at movies or television shows that get greenlit these days, and this is just a sort of if it bleeds, it leads, it is very similar to the way that human beings consume the news.
00:51:23:15 - 00:51:47:17
Leslie Carr
You're more likely to get a film greenlit if it has sort of a dumber perspective on the future of the planet than if there's, let's say, a utopian vision of the future. And as a result, I think that it is. It's robbing people of their ability to feel hopeful because they're seeing worst case scenarios all the time, and they're often not seeing the best case scenario.
00:51:47:19 - 00:52:14:08
Leslie Carr
And I think something that's really important about your message is that it is not too late to create the best case scenario. Again, the time is now to create the best case scenario. But will you please tell us a little bit about what is the best case scenario? I want to give everyone who sees this and everyone who listens to it, the opportunity to create a mental picture of, let's say it's 2050.
00:52:14:08 - 00:52:25:22
Leslie Carr
If you feel comfortable with that, being sure, a year that we ballpark into the future, what does the world look like if it's 2050 and we did everything right?
00:52:26:00 - 00:52:49:03
Heather White
Such a great question. First, I want to talk about this idea of robbing a robbing our imaginations through all the doom. And that's a story telling my Ted talk that I gave a talk to fifth graders about creating a greener, healthier world. And a little girl raised her hand and asked if there was a way to see it, and she said, I can't even imagine it.
00:52:49:04 - 00:52:53:14
Heather White
Yeah. And so if kids if our kids can't imagine what this future and I'm about to answer.
00:52:53:14 - 00:52:54:14
Leslie Carr
The oh yeah, I believe if.
00:52:54:14 - 00:53:00:13
Heather White
Kids can imagine it, that really is the crisis of creativity. Yeah, that was one of those moments where little.
00:53:00:13 - 00:53:06:09
Leslie Carr
Brains just get bombarded with the worst case scenario over and over again. And it's true for all of us.
00:53:06:10 - 00:53:27:21
Heather White
Absolutely. So, one of the things I would say is to look into solar punk. So solar punk takes technology and punk like punk, takes technologists, futurists and artists all together to kind of envision some of the famous cities that we know and love, like DC or Paris or LA, and show what green design could look like.
00:53:27:21 - 00:53:49:17
Heather White
So rooftop gardens, that could also be food gardens everywhere, you know, green greenery on the sides of buildings as well to help it cool. But energy efficient materials, sustainable materials. The Living Building challenge is a great, weight. If you want to nerd out to see, like, what those buildings could be like, we're actually buildings rather than taking energy.
00:53:49:17 - 00:54:16:05
Heather White
Could be net zero or even have be positive energy. Put more money up. Excuse me. Put more energy back into the grid. So that's like thinking about our built environment. Like really how our cities, cities are set. So that's really cool with everyone having access to parks and green spaces, clean air and clean water, public transit. I mean, and then what's interesting is that we all know we've seen, like the bullet trains in Japan.
00:54:16:10 - 00:54:37:07
Heather White
Why can't we have them in the American West? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I see trains three times a day going through Bozeman, Montana. Often they're full of coal. Yeah. You know, and that could be passengers and it could be bullet trains. So that's another idea to see that. And also just thinking about justice and being at the center of what we create in this future.
00:54:37:07 - 00:54:57:15
Heather White
But yeah, I have a great exercise in the book. And on one green thing in the book resources section of the website, that's a meditation to think about what life could be like in 2030 and 2050, and even have an exercise where you envision that you're an ancestor, like you're meeting with a young person that you're related to in 2050.
00:54:57:15 - 00:55:24:10
Heather White
Yeah. And they ask you, you know, what you did to create the future that they are living in. And the question is, you know, what will they thank you for? And what will they wish you had known. So I think like one of the things that I wish that people older than me because I was 28, 29 when I was a recount lawyer for al Gore, I wish people older than me knew how important that election was going to be, you know?
00:55:24:14 - 00:55:43:01
Heather White
So if I had an opportunity to have that conversation. But I think that the future generations that we don't know yet, but we will get to know because they're coming, we will know and love them, will have similar moments, too, of accountability for us as well. So I think that's the answer. But I think we all kind of have different versions of what that could look like.
00:55:43:06 - 00:55:51:00
Heather White
And that's one of the things I do in the talk is I share some of my sketches, which I know are, you know, there are amazing art pieces there.
00:55:51:00 - 00:55:53:18
Leslie Carr
Da. But I want to encourage everyone to check it out just for.
00:55:53:20 - 00:55:53:23
Heather White
The.
00:55:53:23 - 00:56:20:09
Leslie Carr
Drawings. Yeah, I actually really want to just take a moment to encourage anyone who listens to this or sees this, to take a moment to create their own vision of the future, you know, a future where there's clean air, clean water, rooftop gardens, all of these beautiful things. And, you know, everyone gets to decide for themselves if they believe that manifestation is possible.
00:56:20:09 - 00:56:43:09
Leslie Carr
But one of the things that is sometimes said that in order to collectively manifest something, you just need 51% of the population to focus on the possibility of it. So I want to encourage everyone that sees this and listens to this to create a vision of it, and maybe we'll see if we can collectively manifest it with each other.
00:56:43:09 - 00:56:45:21
Leslie Carr
And I'll just be a little bit of a challenge.
00:56:45:23 - 00:56:47:11
Heather White
Amen.
00:56:47:13 - 00:56:56:01
Leslie Carr
But is there anything, Heather, that I have either not asked you or anything that's kind of burning on your heart that you want to say right now that we haven't gotten to yet?
00:56:56:03 - 00:57:24:02
Heather White
I think that we, you know, I asked that question to my younger kid, when I, I say this at the end of the book and, you know, she was like, I've said it all, mom, I haven't said at all. I haven't said at all. But my my other kid was like, listen to the kids. So I think my, my take away and the only thing I haven't said is, you know, and I think it's the most important one green thing that you can take is ask the young people in your life how they feel about the future.
00:57:24:02 - 00:57:46:07
Heather White
We're leaving them. Yes. And I will tell you, I have friends who've said, Heather, you know, your kids have eco anxiety, climate anxiety, because they're your kids. You know, this is what you do. And to a person, when I say to them, ask the young people in your life how they feel. It has been a game changing conversation because people start to see themselves invested in the environmental movement.
00:57:46:07 - 00:58:03:14
Heather White
When they hear what young people are thinking the future would be and and you know, there's so much at stake. There's so many challenges happening right now to our democracy, as you, as you mentioned, and that we are continuing to stand up and we need to stand up and respect due process and the Bill of rights and the rule of law, etc..
00:58:03:20 - 00:58:13:08
Heather White
But we need to really understand how those young people feel and see that we're all part of the solution. So I think that would be my final thing, which is what my younger kids said is listen to the kids.
00:58:13:14 - 00:58:17:21
Leslie Carr
Absolutely, and take what they say seriously. Yes. Right. Take it to heart.
00:58:17:21 - 00:58:18:11
Heather White
Yes.
00:58:18:11 - 00:58:20:22
Leslie Carr
Thank you so much for doing this with me today.
00:58:21:00 - 00:58:24:15
Heather White
Thank you Leslie, it's such a joy, as always to be with you. Thank you.
00:58:24:17 - 00:58:45:02
Leslie Carr
You've been watching or listening to The Nature of nature with me, doctor Leslie Carr. And I want to thank you for joining us. You can find Heather at one green.org. That link is in the show notes. And you can find me at The Nature of nurture.com. Many thanks to Heather for having this conversation with me. This episode was produced by me, Bri Corey, and Asher Friedberg.
00:58:45:04 - 00:59:04:22
Leslie Carr
Thanks to Bri Asher, Rick, Barry O'Dell, and everyone at SLAPP Studios, LA for helping to make my dreams come true. If you found this conversation valuable, please let me know by leaving a review or rating, or by sharing the episode with at least one person who you think might enjoy it too. You can also like or subscribe on YouTube or in any podcast app that you can get your hands on.
00:59:05:00 - 00:59:07:16
Leslie Carr
Thank you again for tuning in. See you next time.