In this Season Five opener of The Nature of Nurture, Dr. Leslie Carr sits down with her friend and collaborator Julia de’Caneva for a candid, expansive conversation about mortality, meaning, and what it actually takes to live fully. Julia is a cancer survivor, holistic health coach, writer, and death care educator whose work centers on integrating wellness with an honest relationship to death. Together, Leslie and Julia explore why modern culture avoids conversations about dying, how mortality awareness can deepen our appreciation for life, and how nervous system regulation helps us stay present with fear, grief, and uncertainty. This episode weaves together themes of healing, burnout, capitalism, nature, spirituality, embodiment, and curiosity, offering listeners an invitation to stop avoiding the inevitable and instead use it as a guide for living more intentionally.
In this Season Five opener of The Nature of Nurture, Dr. Leslie Carr sits down with her friend and collaborator Julia de’Caneva for a candid, expansive conversation about mortality, meaning, and what it actually takes to live fully.
Julia is a cancer survivor, holistic health coach, writer, and death care educator whose work centers on integrating wellness with an honest relationship to death. Together, Leslie and Julia explore why modern culture avoids conversations about dying, how mortality awareness can deepen our appreciation for life, and how nervous system regulation helps us stay present with fear, grief, and uncertainty.
This episode weaves together themes of healing, burnout, capitalism, nature, spirituality, embodiment, and curiosity, offering listeners an invitation to stop avoiding the inevitable and instead use it as a guide for living more intentionally.
About the Guest
Julia de’Caneva is a cancer survivor, holistic health coach, writer, and death care educator. She is the creator of If It’s the Last Thing I Do and the co-founder of Elemental, a wellness company devoted to reshaping the human relationship with nature, embodiment, and mortality.
Julia and Leslie also co-lead in-person workshops focused on nervous system regulation and embodiment.
Resources & Links
If It’s the Last Thing I Do — Julia de’Caneva
https://www.ifitsthelastthingido.com/
Elemental
https://www.experienceelemental.com/
The Nature of Nurture
https://lesliecarr.com/podcast/
Patreon Membership
https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheNatureofNurture
Watch on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@TheNatureofNurture
Credits
Hosted by Dr. Leslie Carr
Guest: Julia de’Caneva
Produced by Dr. Leslie Carr & Bri Coorey
Recorded at SLAP Studios LA
00:00:20:01 - 00:00:39:04
Leslie
Welcome to the fifth season of The Nature of Nurture with Doctor Leslie Carr. A podcast for your mental health. I'm your host, Leslie. If you're watching this podcast right now, you can find the audio version in any podcast app. And if you're listening, you can also watch this episode on YouTube at The Nature of Nurture. You can find that link in the show notes.
00:00:39:06 - 00:01:03:03
Leslie
Today we're here with Julia de Canada. Julia is many things, including a dear, dear friend of mine. She's a cancer survivor, a holistic health coach, a writer, and a death care educator. Integrating wellness and mortality through her business and Substack called If It's the Last Thing I Do. Julia is also the co-founder of elemental, a wellness company that's working to fundamentally change our human relationship with nature.
00:01:03:04 - 00:01:32:12
Leslie
Julia and I host in-person workshops together that are devoted to nervous system regulation. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming the professional Bert to my Ernie, my Indigo Girl and wellness, Julia, Dick and Eva. When you and I are, hosting our workshops together and we're introducing ourselves, I always feel inclined, as you know, to kind of emphasize for people, not only that, you and I have a lot in common, but that we have very quirky and somewhat specific.
00:01:32:12 - 00:01:33:03
Juia
Things in.
00:01:33:03 - 00:02:01:13
Leslie
Common. You know, it's so funny. It's like, I don't want to start this interview off by throwing you under the bus here. But like some of the quirkiest things about me, you also have quirks which I love about us. And so obviously one of those things is just like education addiction, right? I think one of the reasons why I really enjoy putting on workshops with you is because we cover all the bases right between like psychology, holistic health coaching, yoga, breathwork, Reiki, all the things.
00:02:01:13 - 00:02:02:19
Juia
Totally.
00:02:02:21 - 00:02:15:20
Leslie
But the other day I was thinking about the fact that there is only one thing that I know for sure. We have in common with every single person who's ever going to listen to this episode. Do you want to guess what it is?
00:02:15:22 - 00:02:17:23
Juia
Maybe that we're mortal?
00:02:17:23 - 00:02:41:08
Leslie
Yes, that we're all going to die. And this is how we're starting off season five by talking about death. So I don't mean to be the bearer of bad tidings. Sorry, Bri. And everyone who's listening. We're all going to die. I'm dying. You're dying? Yes. Everybody other than Brian Johnson is dying. So what I want to know is, why does nobody want to talk about it?
00:02:41:10 - 00:02:43:00
Juia
Isn't that the thing?
00:02:43:02 - 00:02:44:02
Leslie
Isn't that the thing?
00:02:44:06 - 00:03:20:09
Juia
It really is. I mean, it's such a function of, like, the modern human world, though. I mean, it's really recent in human history, and even I will arguably just say I can only really speak to the culture of death phobia in the U.S in particular, because as you go around the globe, it really does change. And we see that in, immigrants who bring their rituals and people get excited to see other rituals because we've just become so far removed from them.
00:03:20:11 - 00:03:50:22
Juia
I think a lot of it is we have placed so much of our worth and our purpose in doing so. When you take away the doing, suddenly you become nothing. But you're not nothing without the doing, you're actually everything. But that's a whole other thing. But I think it's really scary on a Tuesday to think about.
00:03:51:00 - 00:03:58:07
Juia
Who are you when you take away everything you define yourself as?
00:03:58:09 - 00:04:23:12
Leslie
Yeah, it's really interesting. There's so much in that. And I'm just sort of thinking about the fact that we don't as a culture. I think you're spot on that this is a largely American thing, but we don't have it sort of culturally, we avoid this like the plague, Pun intended, I suppose, but you know that we don't really have cultural ways of, thinking about and talking about dying.
00:04:23:12 - 00:04:47:19
Leslie
We don't have ways of virtualizing it outside of the concept of, like, wakes and funerals. And that kind of stuff. And that's a very good point, that we also sort of define ourselves by our work in the United States in particular. And so you know, I know that you have a lot of concerns and criticisms about the wellness industry in general, and this is only one of them.
00:04:48:00 - 00:04:53:18
Leslie
And I wonder if you want to regale us a little bit more with some of just like the criticisms that you have about the wellness industry right now?
00:04:53:21 - 00:05:24:01
Juia
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people have been voicing similar concerns. I know it's not just me and my little soapbox, I guess on a soapbox, but sometimes when you're on the internet, it feels like you're in something. Absolutely. In the vacuum. I find that so many of the voices that are speaking up are catching people's attention because they are pulling us further and further away from our humanness.
00:05:24:01 - 00:05:54:18
Juia
Yeah, like from our humanity, from our mortality. And I love a lot of the biohacking world is just metabolic health. And that's the kind of health that I really live by. And it starts to get pushed over the edge because people want to live forever. Yeah. And so they're trying to take what we might call longevity medicine and turn it into immortality medicine.
00:05:54:19 - 00:06:20:13
Juia
Yeah. And that's where it gets really slippery because for so many people, anti-aging products of every kind. I mean, we've been told that in the beauty industry for a bajillion years now. Yeah, but especially then in supplements and food. So just creeping into this, don't age, don't die, don't die. Yeah. I mean, as if anyone has a choice in that.
00:06:20:13 - 00:06:41:09
Juia
And one of the things that goes around the internet that really makes me laugh every time is when people say, if I die and they mean, yeah, sometimes they mean if I die in a particular time. But other times people are just really trying so hard to distance themselves from their mortality that they just say, instead of when I die, yeah, if I die.
00:06:41:09 - 00:06:43:00
Juia
And I'm like.
00:06:43:01 - 00:07:00:02
Leslie
I think noticing that a lot in in language kind of on the internet, too, in terms of I keep hearing the phrase transition like so and so transition, which is so funny because in today's political climate that can be pretty confusing. Yes, we nor I normally associate that word with like a gender transition, but somebody will say so and so transitioned.
00:07:00:02 - 00:07:07:03
Leslie
And I think to myself, like, we don't even want to say the word. People don't even, you know, like that's how far we are from it.
00:07:07:05 - 00:07:33:16
Juia
I mean, I get really fired up about this. And I do understand that some of that phenomenon in the internet is because you'll get banned for saying words like death, dying. So it can be difficult to have freely straightforward conversations. That's a good point. And it's just perpetuating that we can't say so-and-so died on this date, like, that's that's what they did.
00:07:33:17 - 00:07:34:02
Leslie
Yeah.
00:07:34:07 - 00:07:44:06
Juia
You didn't lose them. You. The grief is felt as a loss. That is true. But we didn't lose them. They died.
00:07:44:06 - 00:07:45:04
Leslie
Right. Exactly.
00:07:45:04 - 00:08:02:02
Juia
And sure, they transitioned. Sometimes people use transitioned, particularly when someone has a very prolonged death because it's like, oh, they are actively dying and they mean the final transition of death in that moment.
00:08:02:04 - 00:08:21:08
Leslie
There's also sort of a spiritual component to it. And I and then I don't mind that Hodl. It's just interesting how we sort of avoid the word. And I think you're making a really good point that social media companies these days are so intense with their algorithm, in terms of all of the words that it looks for, to make sure that you're not saying something nefarious online, that it's all a little overdone.
00:08:21:08 - 00:08:36:15
Juia
It's a little slippery, and it just doubles down on the people saying, oh, they passed away. Oh, they passed away. And then you sort of feel obligated because everyone else is saying passed away to say, oh, well, they passed away. And it's like, are they just they died.
00:08:36:15 - 00:08:36:23
Leslie
Yeah.
00:08:37:04 - 00:09:03:21
Juia
It's okay that they died because at some point it all becomes a softening and air quotes. But it's not softening the fact that we all know they died. We're just dancing around it. Yeah. And then everybody feels kind of weird. And then you don't really know what you can do. You don't know what you can say. We don't have rituals for, well, anything anymore, right outside of maybe what people think of a traditional funeral.
00:09:03:21 - 00:09:26:04
Juia
But even whether you're allowed to cry over a celebrity death, people feel weird about that. And like, if you feel like crying because someone died, just cry about it, right? I mean, I'm saying that for myself as much as anybody, sure. But I think the softening of the language, we really need to kind of come together and just be like, this isn't making it easier.
00:09:26:06 - 00:09:28:04
Juia
Yeah, it's just making it harder.
00:09:28:06 - 00:09:46:06
Leslie
Do you, as someone who has had to really confront this for yourself and has thought a lot about it, meditated on it, all of the things. Do you have any advice for anyone who might be listening to this right now, who feels really freaked out just by even hearing us have this conversation?
00:09:46:08 - 00:10:06:12
Juia
Yeah. You know, I think it's really interesting because the more you dive into death and dying, the more you see that there are kind of different flavors of a fear around death. And some people will say, I'm not afraid of dying physically. I'm not afraid of that process, but I'm afraid of leaving all my friends and family behind.
00:10:06:18 - 00:10:33:03
Juia
The kind of FOMO fear of death and dying. So what people will sometimes say as oh, I am or I am not afraid is actually way more nuanced. And the pieces that you're afraid of are much smaller than mortality. And there's actually so many beautiful parts about confronting your mortality that help you highlight what matters in your life.
00:10:33:05 - 00:10:59:00
Juia
And what you love about your life and all of the things that make you feel lit up. And so for so many people, when they finally dip their toes in, you're sort of like, oh come in, the water's fine. Yeah. Like you just end up it circles all the way back to a life lived fully. And that kind of comes back to spending all your time on work, especially if your work isn't something that is so, like in your bones, meaningful.
00:10:59:00 - 00:11:06:06
Juia
Because, yeah, we gotta pay rent. That's what happens. But that's just where the magic is.
00:11:06:11 - 00:11:06:13
Leslie
Yeah.
00:11:06:15 - 00:11:15:05
Juia
And in in the mortality, in the living more fully. Because at one point in your life you will die. Just one point.
00:11:15:08 - 00:11:40:04
Leslie
Yeah. I, we're going to talk a little bit more about work later, but I think right now you're just saying something really important about, you know, one of the philosophies of death is that the very existence of it makes us appreciate our lives more like, I think if people were actually to think about this for a moment, if you really did know that you were going to live forever, it would make everything kind of meaningless.
00:11:40:04 - 00:11:48:17
Leslie
Like there's nothing to savor or even really enjoy. If you know any sunset you see is one of a billion sunsets.
00:11:48:17 - 00:12:02:18
Juia
You know it's so real. And it's funny because I've done I've gone down many rabbit hole. I don't know exactly one of which being nihilism, because it's sort of like nothing matters. But then everything matters.
00:12:02:18 - 00:12:03:10
Leslie
Exactly.
00:12:03:10 - 00:12:34:05
Juia
And in this, if you have a finite amount of time, how we can ascribe meaning feels so different. And, you know, you get even further down rabbit holes, which we don't have to go down today, but the kind of idea of a soul journey that it's finite, that there's something to learn, but that you don't have to be overwhelmed, that you're supposed to learn every single piece of the universe, like, yeah, yeah, that'd be two.
00:12:34:05 - 00:12:59:09
Juia
Would be a lot. Just like it just gives you having done graphic design for a long time in my adult life. Creativity loves constraints. And what constraints? Yeah. Then dying. Yeah. So creativity can really be born of mortality. Yeah. People. People think of it as a degenerative thing, but it is, in my mind, only generative.
00:12:59:11 - 00:13:34:18
Leslie
I love that so much. It, the conversation that we're having right now is reminding me of a conversation that we had the other day, but I, you know, I think we're kind of in this territory, but it's so juicy to me, which is the idea of learning, learning and life in general. Learning, healing, growing, whether we think of it as a psychological thing or a spiritual thing, the idea that we learn and we grow in life, and this very tender idea that we can learn and grow through the most difficult things, including things like a cancer diagnosis.
00:13:34:19 - 00:13:58:14
Leslie
And I wonder if you want to just like, speak a little bit to how you think about the notion of sort of like learning and growing in that kind of context. You know, I think there are a lot of people, lots of people that would just sort of be like us that, you know, I don't I don't want to think of myself as learning anything through this, but I know that you and I are on the same page about feeling like we can learn and grow through the most difficult things in life.
00:13:58:14 - 00:14:03:01
Leslie
So I wonder if, like broadly speaking, you speak to that a little bit.
00:14:03:03 - 00:14:27:07
Juia
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think from the moment that I got diagnosed, which was in 2018, I was 29 at the time and my reaction to it was it felt like a trap door out of the life that I had built around myself that just didn't. It was sort of suffocating in some ways. Yeah. I mean, in a beautiful Life in some, but in others.
00:14:27:13 - 00:15:06:03
Juia
And my friends thought I was crazy for thinking, whoa, look at this opportunity. And I think it comes down to this kind of the public discourse around this is that everything happens for a reason. Crowd. Right? And to me, I don't think everything happens for a reason. Like you didn't deserve that. I think there's nuance there. Yeah, but I do think that any kind of massive, life changing knocks you off your pendulum swinging is an opportunity to be like, but who am I now?
00:15:06:06 - 00:15:07:06
Leslie
Right?
00:15:07:08 - 00:15:23:03
Juia
So many people get stuck in the grief of who they were, which is a kind of death we have no tools for. They just cannot wait to get back to that person. But that person doesn't exist.
00:15:23:06 - 00:15:46:17
Leslie
Yeah, that is such a small circle. I just need to pause on that because it's so beautiful and profound that, you know, there is the literal death of actually dying, and there is the metaphorical death that I think most of us, if not all of us in many ways, experience many times in life that every time you know, to have a baby for the first time is to lose the person that you were before you had the baby.
00:15:46:17 - 00:16:07:15
Leslie
Like it's to, you know, we experience many ego deaths and transitions of different kinds. And so I think that's a very important point that it's like you, I think one of the reasons why things like a cancer diagnosis can be so traumatizing is because there is the death of that person that you were before, that you you're never going to go back.
00:16:07:15 - 00:16:35:21
Juia
To you can't you can't, you know, take the puzzle piece out and throw it away and try to put the puzzle back together. Yeah, it doesn't work like that. Yeah. But if you can really hold space for that grief, then you're like, whoa, everything is. I knew it is different. It's not better. A lot of people think, oh, if you're trying to take a curious approach to something that it you must think it's better.
00:16:35:21 - 00:17:01:12
Juia
And it's like, oh no, no, no. Yeah. It's more like curiosity in the sense of the what the Buddhists call beginner's mind. You might know everything about a situation, but if you walk in as though you don't, you leave a opportunity to see things that you didn't before. And I think that's the same. And that's the kind of attitude that I never felt before my diagnosis.
00:17:01:12 - 00:17:35:08
Juia
And then I laughed with a friend of mine about accidentally reverse engineering Buddhism through my own experience, because I learned that that all of the phrases and all of the terms that they had overlaid with my experience and, you know, there's I in one way, one of the reasons that I've done so many professional trainings is because there are so few places now, as an adults, to go to find an education outside of a higher learning degree.
00:17:35:08 - 00:17:59:04
Juia
Right? And I'm like, well, that would be I would go back to school, but I need you to include all of these disparate pieces that I think go together. And there's no program right. That puts those things together solutely. And so bringing this kind of like, well, what can life teach me that I don't need to like pay tuition for free learning?
00:17:59:06 - 00:18:08:13
Juia
I don't recommend getting a tumor. But you know, and I, you know, I for the people that might point out that getting a tumor is very expensive.
00:18:08:15 - 00:18:10:02
Leslie
It's not. Yeah. Yes.
00:18:10:02 - 00:18:10:21
Juia
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:10:21 - 00:18:12:20
Leslie
It could be as expensive as a grad school education. Yeah.
00:18:12:20 - 00:18:34:11
Juia
Exactly. And the attitude is free, though. Yeah. And that can be so beautiful because it takes this thing that might kill you. I have had a lot of friends now die of cancer, but I also have a lot of friends living with cancer. Right. Who are just doing cool things in the world, or maybe doing mundane things in the world for that matter, to.
00:18:34:13 - 00:18:37:04
Leslie
Yeah, just be angry to think they could be actually.
00:18:37:04 - 00:18:41:19
Juia
Yeah. Without their work in their titles. Yeah. Everything.
00:18:41:21 - 00:19:06:08
Leslie
You said something that I really want to go back to, which is this idea that from this basically from the second, I don't know if it was the literal second, but effectively, from the moment that you got diagnosed, that there was a sense that there was an opportunity in there for you. Can you say a little bit more about kind of what you sensed that that opportunity was, or what you think the unique features were of your life that enabled you to see it as an opportunity.
00:19:06:10 - 00:19:08:08
Leslie
Basically, from the moment that it happened.
00:19:08:10 - 00:19:33:14
Juia
Yeah. I mean, I think I would have always categorize myself as kind of, well, now I would say an optimistic nihilist in some ways, if you're going to use a label, but just always kind of leaning towards glass, half full curiosity. Yeah. Kind of like a continuous. Why? So I think I have that set point. I think that's fair.
00:19:33:16 - 00:19:54:07
Juia
And something that I've just cultivated over the years, and I was so burned out at the time, and I was working with people I loved. I had a great boss, had a great, you know, team. And I was doing nonprofit marketing support, doing graphic design, like all things that I enjoy doing.
00:19:54:07 - 00:19:54:19
Leslie
Yeah.
00:19:54:21 - 00:20:22:14
Juia
And was just so burned out. Yeah. And it was really this sense of I think something needs to change, but I don't know how to do that because I was working hard and making good money. I was trying to be sort of active when I could, you know, and maybe the stories that I was working up more than I was at the time.
00:20:22:16 - 00:20:31:01
Juia
I had just gotten married a couple of years before. All the pieces of the kind of cardboard Life.
00:20:31:01 - 00:20:31:15
Leslie
Yeah.
00:20:31:17 - 00:21:03:19
Juia
Came together, and it was so hollow in a lot of ways. I have such beautiful relationships. It's not like everything in my life felt meaningless, but just that undertone of what is. What am I missing? Yeah. So I had a little bit of runway on my tumor because I'm the one that found the lump in my neck. So I had a pretty big runway between me being like, I was pretty sure that the thing in my neck that hurts is going to be cancer.
00:21:03:21 - 00:21:23:16
Juia
So I had time to sit with myself before the diagnosis came. Because I do know other people that it was much more of a surprise. Like they went in for a different surgery and came out knowing they had cancer. The just acute trauma of that. I had a runway and I just was sort of like, well, I'm not even 30 yet.
00:21:23:16 - 00:21:35:09
Juia
So if I need to prepare to be a dying 30 year old, like, what am I going to do with my life? And that was really exciting. So I think that's kind of what the opportunity felt like.
00:21:35:11 - 00:21:54:04
Leslie
It's an incredible way of looking at it. And, we're certainly circling around something that you and I talk about a lot, and I know that we feel both of us really passionately about it, which is just that the I, the modern world is not set up for human thriving. And so do you want to just sort of speak to that piece a little bit, get on yourself off?
00:21:54:05 - 00:22:09:04
Juia
Yes. More soapboxes. It's so real though. I mean, and this goes to the wellness industry too, because everything we do in our current modern society, that is, may I add, I think, crumbling yoga as deeply as.
00:22:09:06 - 00:22:11:10
Leslie
Oh yes, perhaps we'll take some time for that.
00:22:11:11 - 00:22:44:16
Juia
Yeah, sure. So, all of those pieces together are overworking, overachieving, overdoing and kind of not quite getting enough back for ourselves out of it to feel like any of it's sustainable. I mean, working 40 hours a week is it's almost impossible to keep up with laundry and dishes and goodness if you have children. Yeah, goodness of your caretaking elders, goodness of your caretaking siblings.
00:22:44:18 - 00:23:13:14
Juia
It just it's too much. And I'm pretty certain that everybody feels like that. I don't think there's anyone that feels like they're tracking on all cylinders, except maybe the super 10,000% Biohackers who are just so intense about everything. Just think that that's the level that it needs to be at, and that I don't know about. Like Soylent Green.
00:23:13:14 - 00:23:49:01
Leslie
Is coming to mind. You know, I haven't thought about that contextually in a long time. But if. Yeah, like the kind of person who is so running on a sense of efficiency that they're not really thinking about life in a more holistic way, but I often, you know, I think about this a lot, that it's kind of crazy to think that the entire paradigm that our current modern American society is built on from a work point of view, was built with the idea that somebody would be doing that job and another person would be at home cooking, cleaning, picking up, dry cleaning, taking care of all of the sort of matters of living.
00:23:49:03 - 00:24:15:00
Leslie
And it's interesting to think that even from a 1950s point of view, where that maybe worked a little bit better than it does now, there still isn't a lot of time for somebody to be like exercising on a daily basis and that kind of stuff. So it already was a broken system was already broken. But now when there's no one at home, generally speaking, take care of those things because everybody's working and they're working far more than 40 hours a week, and there's no time for self-care.
00:24:15:02 - 00:24:17:18
Leslie
There's just no doubt that that's that much more true.
00:24:18:00 - 00:24:39:00
Juia
It's so, so real. And I mean, coming out of a like a village mindset where there's more than two people at home to help out. Yeah. And then we went down to two, and now we're down to zero and everyone gets home and they wish that there was someone else there to cook for them, and there was someone else there to kind of support them.
00:24:39:03 - 00:25:06:07
Juia
And not just from a like an uncoupled perspective, just from a everybody's been out all day and running around and there is this deeply entrenched sense of, oh, but we have to do this. I remember having a conversation with someone a few years ago. They were hustling very, very hard at basically two full time jobs. And it's to make sure that their kids tuition is paid.
00:25:06:11 - 00:25:10:23
Juia
Right. But do your kids actually need to go to private school?
00:25:10:23 - 00:25:12:13
Leslie
Absolutely.
00:25:12:15 - 00:25:33:02
Juia
And, you know, you start to pull the thread and it all starts to unravel of, you know, how we view education, how we view intelligence. Yeah. But it also comes back to how we view mortality. I was like, we just ignore it until we can't. Yeah. And then it becomes the most important thing. And you want to tell everybody about it.
00:25:33:07 - 00:25:34:00
Leslie
Yeah. I was like.
00:25:34:00 - 00:26:01:08
Juia
Oh my gosh. But we don't have to live a life where we're distracted away from our mortality. We can go right up to it and be with it. And it's sort of like anti-climactic in a lot of ways. Okay. To break it to everybody. I just think people really make it into this big Godzilla monster, right? When it's really just like a part of our humanity.
00:26:01:10 - 00:26:22:15
Leslie
Yeah, I think a lot of times what's happening to when I think about the people that I know in my life that are like the, the person or the couple that you referenced, the people that are hardcore on a treadmill because they need to earn a lot of money to pay for private school education and all of these things that have, I mean, massive kind of keeping up with the Joneses, like really, really on that treadmill.
00:26:22:17 - 00:26:39:18
Leslie
I think that there is a huge part of that that is death avoidance. But the more you are on that treadmill and the less time you have to think about anything, the more you don't have to reflect on issues like your own mortality truth.
00:26:39:20 - 00:27:14:08
Juia
It's so, so real. I mean, and some of the things that I've realized in my own journey with mortality, maybe, yeah, is how much my busyness, overworking, all of the things that I kept myself very, very, very occupied with were a direct reflection of me trying to avoid my mortality because other people told me to do so. Not in certain words.
00:27:14:08 - 00:27:43:08
Juia
Yeah, but being really perceptive as a kid, I just started to understand that. Oh, if you said something about death and dying, people go, oh, that's so morbid, or I didn't go to weeks with my parents because they didn't want it to upset me. And I appreciate that because it may have upset me at the time. But I also wonder if it really is upsetting or if it's just like it's upsetting and we grieve.
00:27:43:09 - 00:28:09:06
Leslie
Oh, absolutely. I think that I think that there is a really big problem in general with trying to shield children from uncomfortable thoughts and feelings. So real big there are I mean, the ramifications of that are huge in terms of addictions. And, you know, people when when people are taught to avoid difficult feelings and they start to lean into that as a, as a coping strategy, the ultimate impact of that can be really severe.
00:28:09:10 - 00:28:35:13
Leslie
Totally. And I don't think people realize that that's what they're doing. But I kind of want to go back a step to what you were saying about the fact that society is crumbling, because I think it's very related to everything that we're saying, where it's not necessarily to bring cause and effect into this, you know, correlation is not causation, etc. but does it feel to you like society is kind of crumbling, in part because this system is so unsustainable?
00:28:35:15 - 00:29:10:07
Juia
Yes. Because I also think we're parts of a whole together. Yeah. And look at the rates of cancer, especially in younger people. Yeah. We're crumbling. Yeah. We're all crumbling. So it feels like the societal crumbling is a reflection of the people and vice versa. Like we cannot be separated from that. And the only way to be well is to not be in this paradigm that we're in, it's almost impossible to be truly, well.
00:29:10:09 - 00:29:35:13
Juia
And follow the kind of standard accepted the quote unquote, necessary protocols for being a human in this society. So I'm like, oh, I let's burn it to the ground. And I understand we have to build something else in its place. Yeah. But I think there are a lot of people who have been sort of waiting in the wings to say, I've arrived to their way, the unconventional thinkers.
00:29:35:13 - 00:29:48:06
Juia
I've been a sort of dedicated nonconformist my whole life. And I was like, this is what I've been training for. I had no idea. I when I was ten, I wasn't like, I'm going to wait for civilization to crumble, and then I'm going to stuff.
00:29:48:08 - 00:29:50:11
Leslie
It's really stuff into my power.
00:29:50:11 - 00:30:15:20
Juia
Give you an idea, just a helping, like supportive hand. Yeah, but that's what it feels like is happening. I mean, in the same way that we can take cancer as an invitation to say, what are we not listening to in our bodies? The crumbling of society is what are we not listening to as a society? And I think a lot of people have stepped up to say, we've built all of this at the expense of our own health.
00:30:15:20 - 00:30:19:15
Juia
Yes. And what are we, if not our health?
00:30:19:17 - 00:30:31:08
Leslie
Yes, yes. There are so many different directions that we could take this one because I'm thinking about elemental. But before we get there, do you want to just get a bit woo about this for a moment? Like if you were to sort of.
00:30:31:10 - 00:30:31:15
Juia
See how.
00:30:31:18 - 00:30:39:03
Leslie
You were just sort of zoom out a little bit, how do we maybe bring a spiritual perspective into this?
00:30:39:05 - 00:31:01:22
Juia
You know, spirituality can be really squishy, but it is very related to mortality because mortality is the one vestige of shared human existence where none of us have an answer for it. People have died and been resuscitated, so they have an idea. There's are a lot of documented, near-death experiences.
00:31:01:22 - 00:31:02:06
Leslie
Yes.
00:31:02:07 - 00:31:30:20
Juia
So it's about as close as you can get. And the most of us can't say anything for certain. So spirituality is often a place where people turn to, I think religion and spirituality get conflated a lot. Yes. That comes in for mortality. And so I think people also get freaked out because they don't know where to turn for answers in a topic where you're actually just trying to turn to yourself.
00:31:31:02 - 00:32:15:11
Juia
Yeah. And I feel like my preferred flavor of maybe the definition of spirituality is this kind of learning through yourself by being reflected from the external. So other people, other experiences, spiritual ality, being an internal exploration of your existence and there's a lot of rabbit holes you can go down there. Absolutely. But one version, is this idea of, let's say, a sole purpose that you chose to come into this lifetime, into this timeline of a crumbling society?
00:32:15:12 - 00:32:54:14
Juia
Yeah. To experience something, knowing that your soul is interested in learning or maybe not interested in so much as just knows that this is how we. Yeah, maybe move forward. So, for a lot of people, that feels really inaccessible. But I don't think it's coincidence that there are a lot of cancer survivors, trauma survivors and survivors. Any kind who do circle into that kind of thinking, that's not just to let me distract myself with some storyline of meaning.
00:32:54:14 - 00:32:54:23
Leslie
Yeah.
00:32:54:23 - 00:32:58:21
Juia
Because there's there's a slippery slope there. It's like sort of spiritual bypassing.
00:32:58:23 - 00:33:20:18
Leslie
So yeah, it's really interesting. I don't I have kind of a half baked thought about this because I think that it's something that there are lots of theories. I don't think anybody really thoroughly understands or knows exactly what it is it's going on. But it just feels to me like we're living in the middle of a huge paradigm shift and arguably maybe even like multiple paradigm shifting at the same time.
00:33:20:20 - 00:33:54:12
Leslie
And whether we choose to think about that as a just purely human, sort of stage of evolution that we're all living through, or whether we think about it as something that is, maybe something also other than human, you know, just to sort of like get a little out there for a moment. I when I look at people who are really, really stressed about the state of the world, versus, let's say, people that have a little bit more of a zoomed out perspective where there's an acknowledgment that we're living through really, really difficult stuff.
00:33:54:14 - 00:34:04:12
Leslie
We don't know how it's going to end up yet. I think something that can sometimes be a resource for people is feeling like they're actually could be good. That comes out of this.
00:34:04:12 - 00:34:05:09
Juia
Totally.
00:34:05:09 - 00:34:05:17
Leslie
Yeah.
00:34:05:23 - 00:34:41:05
Juia
I mean, in my cancer experience, I mean, if anyone asks me now, it is in many ways the most challenging thing I've ever experienced. And hands down, the best thing that's ever happened to me, because the things that I experience in my life now, I could never even have thought of before. And that makes me chuckle too, because I'll see those memes and sort of, uplifting messages on the internet that are like, just think, five years ago you were praying for where you are now.
00:34:41:05 - 00:35:04:05
Juia
And I'm like, I don't would not go so far as to say like two surgeries and no thyroid later that I would, I don't think I prayed for this. I really don't think I wanted to be where I am. And it is also true that I am so happy to be where I am. Yeah. So I would love for us to get a little bit of way from this.
00:35:04:05 - 00:35:30:19
Juia
Like I that, well, I'm stuttering because it's basically, why do we think we know anything about the future at all? Yeah. And can we just leave space for possibility, like for me to only be able to think about my life within the confines of what I know now? Think of all the things I'm going to miss out on if I just stick to that path.
00:35:30:21 - 00:35:32:07
Leslie
Yeah, 100%.
00:35:32:09 - 00:35:35:03
Juia
And I think the same applies to society.
00:35:35:04 - 00:35:35:13
Leslie
Yeah.
00:35:35:13 - 00:35:43:20
Juia
It's like, yes, it feels horrible to be going through a prolonged death, a terminal illness of a society.
00:35:43:20 - 00:35:45:10
Leslie
Yeah, that's really well put.
00:35:45:12 - 00:35:51:01
Juia
It's a lot. No one likes it. Doesn't feel good. We like to feel good.
00:35:51:03 - 00:36:07:20
Leslie
Well, it it really brings us full circle in a way, because I'm thinking, going back to this idea of people not wanting to talk about death, and then also the idea that death is not just literal, it's also a metaphor. I think we really are living through like a societal death on some level. And then the question is just what is it?
00:36:07:20 - 00:36:30:17
Leslie
What's going to be reborn afterwards? And we don't know yet, and that's scary as hell. Definitely. And in a minute we're going to be talking about nervous system regulation, and that probably can't come soon enough. Just given, the depth of what we're talking about right now. But before we get there, I want to talk about the work that you're doing with elemental and how you think it fits into the broader conversation that we're having.
00:36:30:17 - 00:36:34:17
Leslie
Will you will you tell us a little bit about sort of the theory behind elemental?
00:36:34:18 - 00:37:05:22
Juia
Yeah. So elemental. My co-founder and I, our mission is really to change the relationship between humans and, as we say, the rest of nature. Yeah. Speaking of limited language, the idea that humans are separate from nature is really recent, and that causes us as humans and also the planet, in case we that wasn't abundantly clear. So much suffering.
00:37:06:04 - 00:37:54:10
Juia
So being able to reconnect the way that kids connect when they're outdoors, curious, silly joy, they sort of have preferences for maybe bugs with less legs, but there's this kind of an openness to everything that is still within us. And that kind of play and fun is really where humans start to understand our role in the entire natural world and realize that we're so supported by like when we exhale, we're the trees are alive because we're exhaling, but they're also helping send us all of this amazing.
00:37:54:12 - 00:37:55:03
Leslie
Everything.
00:37:55:03 - 00:38:22:19
Juia
Everything. But yeah, a whole other scientific rabbit hole. It's really magical. And so if we can come back to this sense of wonder in the natural world, I also think that's going to reset so much of our relationship to our own wellness, because we are the planet and the planet is us, and we're responsible for one another. Yeah, the planet wouldn't be better off without humans.
00:38:22:22 - 00:38:55:09
Juia
Yeah, we can't exist without it. And I do think that as we start to honor natural cycles more and more, I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that the whole move back to farming, homesteading, my husband just started experimenting with fermenting foods at home because there's a deep connection that we're really missing. Yeah, I think it's deeply impacting our wellness and it's also impacting how we view mortality.
00:38:55:15 - 00:39:25:12
Juia
Yeah, it just the last thing I'll say on this, because I was I could talk about it forever is. Nature as an entity. We think of it as separate from us. So yeah, just for the purposes of this nature, being outside teaches us every moment about death and dying and the importance of death and dying, the importance of our bodies going into the soil and turning back into soil.
00:39:25:14 - 00:39:25:22
Leslie
Yeah.
00:39:26:04 - 00:39:35:11
Juia
And the nutrients that are there, and all of the ways that mortality and nature are just of the same conversation.
00:39:35:11 - 00:39:36:07
Leslie
And yeah.
00:39:36:07 - 00:39:56:05
Juia
It that to your question earlier of what can people do to kind of like dip their toes in. Start with nature. Start with your relationship to nature. And other than human beings like talk to a plant, see how it feels. If you're not crazy, if you talk to a plant it's just you're just not.
00:39:56:05 - 00:40:33:08
Leslie
So it's amazing how everything that we're talking about connects back in on itself over and over again. And I just can't help but think about the nature of capitalism. And we don't have to, you know, we're not going to unpack, all of capitalism right now, but it's interesting to think about just how much it is the so that is at the center of everything that we're talking about right now that it is it's sort of is like the boogeyman that is killing the planet, killing our health, destroying our relationship with nature, destroying nature itself.
00:40:33:10 - 00:40:58:03
Leslie
You know, I think about this sort of ecosystem of the human body and the ecosystem of the planet and all of these things that are falling apart because of capitalism. And I don't know that there's a question in there necessarily, but I just can't help but pointed out that there is there is a way that we could be living, and then there is how we have been living and the reason why those two things are not the same.
00:40:58:05 - 00:40:59:19
Leslie
It's it's because of capitalism.
00:40:59:21 - 00:41:10:04
Juia
Well, and I actually want to bring a little nuance to this too, because I'm, I'm actually not like an equal opportunity capitalism hater. I don't appreciate the version of it that we're living in right now.
00:41:10:10 - 00:41:10:17
Leslie
Yeah.
00:41:10:17 - 00:41:31:19
Juia
And I think really consumerism is where we from rule far down the rabbit hole, because at its core, capitalism is born out of a kind of tribal attitude that you bring what you're good at and I'll bring what I'm good at. But what we've done is we've applied it to a bunch of things that don't matter at all.
00:41:31:23 - 00:42:06:08
Juia
So we've created entire industries that we now serve and are servants of that don't mean anything at all. I love interior decor. I think it's really important for my nervous system to be in a space that feels good to my body. Yeah, but like, what a waste in a lot of ways. And this isn't to vilify. That's just an example of where consumerism and capitalism, are in this inextricable dance.
00:42:06:10 - 00:42:20:03
Juia
And the capitalistic like assembly line is what's killing us. The 40 hour work weeks. Yeah. But I think the consumerism and this unchecked grief is also.
00:42:20:06 - 00:42:22:09
Leslie
Do you mean to say greed or grief?
00:42:22:11 - 00:42:46:08
Juia
All of it. But actually both. Both, greed unchecked. Agreed. But also unchecked grief because so many people are grieving for something that they don't know what it is. And my working theory is that our disconnection from the earth is the thing that people are trying to fill. So we got pulled out of the earth through kind of a capitalistic structure.
00:42:46:13 - 00:43:05:10
Juia
But the consumerism is the part that just shot down the toboggan, you know. So I know we're just there's no bricks. So it's not to say that it's possible to live in a capitalistic society that actually works for modern humans. Yes, but I do think that the.
00:43:05:10 - 00:43:14:07
Leslie
Sort of unchecked capitalism and I think to your point, I mean, it's very, very smart of you to make a distinction here, that it's more consumerism than capitalism per say.
00:43:14:07 - 00:43:36:04
Juia
That. And but I also think that makes it a little bit easier for us to say. But how are we going to rebuild this differently? Because if we feel on the whole, I think people feel a little bit like their hands are tied when it comes to a structure as big as capitalism, because in some ways, like what can one person do?
00:43:36:04 - 00:43:59:06
Juia
And of course a lot. But consumerism overlaid over the top, we can chip away at that. We are consumers. We can demand more from businesses. We can really push back on things in any way. This is a whole other topic, but I do think that all of it feels very related and at the end of it too, is just grief that we don't know how to process.
00:43:59:06 - 00:44:20:15
Juia
And that's one of the things that we've lost. Yeah, making death and dying a clinical thing that other experts come in, like when someone you love dies, you call someone else to deal with. Can you even touch them? You know, it's like, we're so divorced from that.
00:44:20:15 - 00:44:26:20
Leslie
Yeah. You look so divorced from our true reality. And a lot of ways, the reality of our existence.
00:44:26:21 - 00:44:38:16
Juia
It's so, so real. And being able to touch into that is scary because it's new for a lot of people, but it's not new in the DNA of being a human.
00:44:38:21 - 00:44:41:01
Leslie
Yeah, it's like a remembering. Yeah.
00:44:41:06 - 00:44:43:06
Juia
Like we can do this. We can remember.
00:44:43:06 - 00:45:19:14
Leslie
Damn, you're smart. I love hanging out with you. So I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about nervous system regulation and something that I feel so aware of as we're having this conversation. You know, I have no idea what it will be like for other people to listen to it, but I know that we're we're taking on really big subject matter that for a lot of people, you know, could be anxiety provoking, whether it's anxiety provoking because they're listening to this or it's just anxiety provoking in general, and you and I can talk about this with a certain amount of fluidity and comfort, in part because we've done a lot of
00:45:19:14 - 00:45:41:18
Leslie
nervous system regulation work and so just to sort of set the table for, this kind of stage of the conversation, because I know it's so juicy for both of us, I just want to sort of explain, for the sake of the listener, that it's there's a lot of nervous system regulation work. I think it's something that is it's talked about a lot these days, which I think is fantastic.
00:45:41:20 - 00:46:08:04
Leslie
It tends to be a little bit misunderstood. Good. True. In lots of ways. I think one of the ways that I think about nervous system regulation work, really high level, is about establishing a sense of safety in the body through radical present moment awareness. You know, that it's, our heads, they do lots of things. They remember the past, they anticipate the future.
00:46:08:06 - 00:46:32:04
Leslie
They hold the trauma of previous experiences, anxiety about future experiences, etc. but in this present moment, right now, there is just, you know, this body having a conversation with this body. And when you work to heal your nervous system, you can, be present with your experience in a way that's a little bit more, fluid in some ways.
00:46:32:06 - 00:46:49:19
Leslie
And so I wonder, first of all, is there anything that you would like to add to that or just in terms of starting high level before you ask you a question about nervous system regulation, but is there anything that you would want to add to that for the sake of anyone who might be listening to this, who doesn't really understand nervous system regulation?
00:46:49:19 - 00:47:21:17
Juia
Yeah, I think one thing I'd love to add, because it comes up a lot, is when you start to talk about nervous system tools, the topic of moving energy through your body comes up, and that people get very bristly about the idea of energy moving through your body. And is that even real? And I I'm I would love to just set it straight that even Western medicine knows and acknowledges that we are just beings of energy.
00:47:21:17 - 00:47:22:06
Leslie
Yeah.
00:47:22:08 - 00:47:25:08
Juia
Electromagnetic fields, our heartbeat.
00:47:25:08 - 00:47:31:22
Leslie
So sympathetic and parasympathetic impulses, it's like is all just energy in the body circuits.
00:47:31:22 - 00:47:49:01
Juia
And so I just want to say when I if I talk about energy or it comes up when you're thinking about nervous systems, it's not this like squishy concept that you have to sign on for. It's just acknowledging the ways that our body physically functions. Yeah. So that was what I wanted to.
00:47:49:02 - 00:48:04:14
Leslie
It's also thank you for that. And also I think one of the biggest misconceptions it's important to clear up is that it's not about being calm. A lot of people think that, you know, a regulated nervous system is about being calm. It's not about being calm. I don't feel particularly calm right now. In fact, I feel super stimulated.
00:48:04:16 - 00:48:24:05
Leslie
But I also feel incredibly present. And so I know that nervous system regulation work is something that's impacted both of our lives very much. And I wonder if you want to just share a little bit with our listeners about how it's impacted your life, in particular, what what have been the benefits of it for you? What do you like about it?
00:48:24:05 - 00:48:57:03
Juia
Yeah, I mean to say it's totally game changing in my life is almost an understatement. Yeah, because I have moved through my life with so many sensitivities to sound, to light, to just all of these sensory experiences that I now can overlay with this idea that my nervous system was overstimulated a lot. I think that has come into the public discourse a lot more as neuro diversity and neuro divergence is becoming more understood.
00:48:57:05 - 00:49:37:05
Juia
You can kind of fall into these labels, but completely ignoring the labels of everything. Something I noticed in my nervous system work, which, I particularly love somatic experiencing from a like heavy duty practices because it's like talk therapy if you don't have to talk about it. And for someone like me, yeah, who has used language as a way to hide from big emotions over the course of my life, it's really important for me to be in a space that demand that I not use my words.
00:49:37:05 - 00:49:37:17
Leslie
Yeah.
00:49:37:17 - 00:49:38:02
Juia
And the.
00:49:38:02 - 00:49:44:02
Leslie
Story. Will you unpack a little bit about what you mean about somatic experience? Yeah. And like heavy duty.
00:49:44:04 - 00:50:17:18
Juia
Totally. So I think of nervous system regulation tools kind of like a spectrum of available options. If you're working with your present moment experience, it could be anything from just feeling a singular sensation in a singular moment, all the way up to as I'm just putting this on my own spectrum of somatic experiencing is usually a session with a practitioner, and they're walking you through, it can sometimes start with a memory, but it can also just be like, what are you noticing in your body right now?
00:50:17:22 - 00:50:32:16
Juia
And you'll follow some kind of, oh, my shoulder feels a little weird, and you'll follow that sensation and talk it through so not talking it through like, yeah, I know so and not the story of it, but just what's happening.
00:50:32:16 - 00:50:42:16
Leslie
Yeah. Just where is the sensation. Where do you see sensation in your body. And I'll and I'll even just say for anyone who's listening to this, you can even do it as you're listening to us.
00:50:42:16 - 00:50:43:03
Juia
Talk.
00:50:43:03 - 00:51:05:23
Leslie
Let's just take a moment to tune in with your body and notice if there's any place in your body that you feel anything, and there might be a story that comes along with it, because there might be a place that brings you pain. Somebody might say, there might be a place where they feel chronic pain or something. And as difficult as it may be, just try to be present with sensation for a moment and not in the story that you tell yourself about what that sensation means.
00:51:05:23 - 00:51:07:09
Leslie
But yeah, addictive as hell.
00:51:07:13 - 00:51:25:19
Juia
Yeah, it really is. And but there's the curiosity piece there too, because you have to come in without an idea of what's going to happen. Yeah, both as an outcome of quote unquote feeling better. But also of like, what is the energy in my body going to do? And then you'll notice like, oh, I want to move my leg.
00:51:25:19 - 00:51:51:15
Juia
And you're like, every time I'm fidgeting, I'm moving energy through my body like, oh, so exciting, really, because it's such a different way of relating to your own body. And from the lens of a cancer survivor to have a relationship with my body where I can see anything that feels pleasant, unpleasant or neutral as an invitation to understand my own experience better.
00:51:51:15 - 00:51:53:17
Juia
Yeah. Like what gift?
00:51:53:18 - 00:51:54:02
Leslie
Yeah.
00:51:54:02 - 00:52:20:23
Juia
What an amazing opportunity. So I just can't I cannot say enough about that because I also have found through all of the tools that I can kind of go to a concert without earplugs in now, like the sensitivities that I had. Yeah. And still have the wine or my capacity to hold my lived experience. The more I do these tools, the bigger the capacity I have.
00:52:21:01 - 00:52:29:14
Juia
Yeah. And the more I can find myself present to hard things and that's amazing. The coolest thing ever.
00:52:29:14 - 00:53:02:00
Leslie
I this is something that I could talk to you about for hours and hours and hours, and instead I'm going to start to draws to a close. But something that I want to say just to relate to what you're saying is that, you know, I know that you and I are both experienced meditators, and it has been a game changer for me, just even in terms of the concept of meditation, because these days, as opposed to just trying to not think I can actually just bring my awareness to any place in my body where I feel a sensation and sit with that sensation for a little while.
00:53:02:00 - 00:53:05:01
Leslie
And it's incredible.
00:53:05:03 - 00:53:24:20
Juia
It what I would love to add to that is mindfulness meditation. But most meditation actually doesn't ask you to not think, not to say that you're wrong, but that. But that's the preconceived notion about it. But it's so interesting to see how your thoughts are actually really just distractions from things that you don't want to deal with.
00:53:24:20 - 00:53:25:17
Leslie
Exactly.
00:53:25:17 - 00:53:27:12
Juia
Like, oh, now I have tools for that.
00:53:27:12 - 00:53:27:22
Leslie
Yes.
00:53:27:22 - 00:53:28:19
Juia
That's so cool.
00:53:28:19 - 00:54:06:11
Leslie
Yes, yes. And something that we could have another conversation about another time is how much it changes the game for things like being able to be present with a sensation of anger in your body, which is something that can be really hard for people to heal up to, to, to feel, you know, what have we maybe not talked about yet today that you really want to share just in terms of kind of like final thoughts, final questions is there something that is, you know, in your head, on your heart that you would want to share with everybody to either drive at home or is there a question I didn't ask you where you're thinking,
00:54:06:12 - 00:54:08:05
Leslie
I gotta say this thing.
00:54:08:07 - 00:54:37:08
Juia
I think what really wants to be said right now is just this invitation into if something really hard is happening in your life, and it is because we live in this society together. Yeah, on a macro level, can you open to the idea that curiosity forward might take you somewhere you could never have imagined in the best way possible?
00:54:37:10 - 00:54:41:16
Leslie
Will you say a little bit more about what you mean by that, this notion of curiosity forward?
00:54:41:16 - 00:55:10:02
Juia
Yeah, I think leaving room for the possibility that you don't know everything in the best way, and that what comes of uncertainty and the unknown might be far better than you ever expected. And even in the cases, let's say I have friends with terminal diagnoses, and on paper that feels like the worst thing that could happen to you.
00:55:10:04 - 00:55:42:20
Juia
But I also know how the ways that people have transformed that energy in a way that felt so meaningful to them, that brought so much richness to the quality of their life, regardless of how long it was that was worth every second of it in their mind. Not I don't wish this on anybody, but just that opportunity that even in the very face of your own death.
00:55:42:21 - 00:55:43:16
Leslie
Yeah.
00:55:43:18 - 00:55:54:12
Juia
That you can open into curiosity and wonder and whatever the opposite of fear is to you basically.
00:55:54:15 - 00:56:06:04
Leslie
Yeah. Thank you so much for that. That's beautiful. I am very grateful that you are my friend and I am so excited to continue to work with you. And thank you so much for being with us.
00:56:06:04 - 00:56:09:17
Juia
Thank you so much. This is just such a delight.
00:56:09:19 - 00:56:28:11
Leslie
You've been watching or listening to The Nature of Nurture with me, Doctor Leslie Carr, and I want to thank you for joining us. You can find Julia at if it's the last thing I do.com. That link is in the show notes and you can find me at the Nature of nurture.com. Many, many thanks to Julia for having this conversation with me.
00:56:28:13 - 00:56:45:18
Leslie
This episode was produced by me and Bree Corey. Thanks to Bree, Rick, Barry, Odell and everyone at SLAPP Studios, LA for helping to make my dreams come true. If you found this conversation valuable, please let me know by leaving a review or rating, or by sharing the episode with at least one person who you think might enjoy it, too.
00:56:45:20 - 00:56:54:12
Leslie
You can also like or subscribe on YouTube or in any podcast app that you can get your hands on. Thank you again for tuning in. I'll see you next time.