In this episode of The Nature of Nurture, Leslie sits down with Yeshaia Blakeney (aka Shai), co-founder and co-CEO of Recovery Integrity and Antedote Lab—dual diagnosis treatment programs in Los Angeles. With more than twenty years of experience in addiction and mental health treatment, Shai brings both clinical and personal insight into recovery, spirituality, and the limits of conventional treatment models. Together, Leslie and Shai explore the therapeutic use of psychedelics in addiction treatment, the role of empathy and self-compassion in recovery, and forward-facing models focused on growth and integration. The conversation moves beyond clinical frameworks into deeper questions about consciousness, spirituality, and the nature of reality itself, touching on how mystical or transformative experiences can reshape identity, loosen rigid patterns, and open new pathways for healing. Through discussions of guilt, shame, connection, and the importance of community, the episode examines what it means for someone to be “stuck” in recovery and how connection, flexibility, and meaning-making may support lasting change. Leslie and Shai also reflect on cultural attitudes toward suffering, effort, and healing, and why fear and risk assessment often shape how new therapeutic approaches are received. The conversation concludes with a personal story from Shai about what he calls an “empirical miracle,” a deeply meaningful experience that shaped his relationship to spirituality, recovery, and the unknown — inviting listeners to consider how moments of coincidence, meaning, and connection can transform the way we understand our lives.
In this episode of The Nature of Nurture, Leslie sits down with Yeshaia Blakeney (aka Shai), co-founder and co-CEO of Recovery Integrity and Antedote Lab—dual diagnosis treatment programs in Los Angeles. With more than twenty years of experience in addiction and mental health treatment, Shai brings both clinical and personal insight into recovery, spirituality, and the limits of conventional treatment models.
Together, Leslie and Shai explore the therapeutic use of psychedelics in addiction treatment, the role of empathy and self-compassion in recovery, and forward-facing models focused on growth and integration. The conversation moves beyond clinical frameworks into deeper questions about consciousness, spirituality, and the nature of reality itself, touching on how mystical or transformative experiences can reshape identity, loosen rigid patterns, and open new pathways for healing.
Through discussions of guilt, shame, connection, and the importance of community, the episode examines what it means for someone to be “stuck” in recovery and how connection, flexibility, and meaning-making may support lasting change. Leslie and Shai also reflect on cultural attitudes toward suffering, effort, and healing, and why fear and risk assessment often shape how new therapeutic approaches are received.
The conversation concludes with a personal story from Shai about what he calls an “empirical miracle,” a deeply meaningful experience that shaped his relationship to spirituality, recovery, and the unknown — inviting listeners to consider how moments of coincidence, meaning, and connection can transform the way we understand our lives.
Guest
Yeshaia Blakeney is the co-founder and co-CEO of Recovery Integrity and Antedote Lab, addiction and dual diagnosis treatment programs in Los Angeles. He is an addiction specialist with more than two decades of experience working in substance abuse and mental health treatment.
Resources & Links
Recovery Integrity Website
https://www.recoverintegrity.com/
Antidote Lab Website
The Nature of Nurture
Patreon Membership
https://www.patreon.com/cw/TheNatureofNurture
Watch on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@TheNatureofNurture
This podcast is available in all podcast apps but here’s the Apple link:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-nature-of-nurture/id1561379347
Credits
Hosted by Dr. Leslie Carr
Guest: Yeshaia Blakeney
Produced by Dr. Leslie Carr and Bri Coorey
Recorded at SLAP Studios LA
Disclaimer
This episode includes discussion of psychedelics and mental health treatment. Psychedelics are illegal in many jurisdictions and are not appropriate for everyone. This content is for education and conversation only and is not medical advice.
00:00:20:03 - 00:00:39:20
Leslie
Welcome to the fifth season of The Nature of Nurture with Doctor Leslie Carr. A podcast for your mental health. I'm your host, Leslie. If you're watching this podcast right now, you can find the audio version in any podcast app. And if you're listening, you can also watch this episode on YouTube at The Nature of Nurture. You can find that link in the show notes.
00:00:39:22 - 00:01:16:00
Leslie
We're here today with Joshua Blakeney, who also goes by Shai Shires, like the co-founder and co-CEO of Recovery Integrity and Antidote addiction and dual diagnosis treatment programs here in Los Angeles. Shai is also an addiction expert with over 20 years of experience working in substance abuse and mental health. Sober since the age of 21, she has a deep understanding of the youth addiction and recovery process, and he specializes in working with people who have either been failed by the mainstream 12 step model, or who are looking for an unorthodox approach in Chais universe.
00:01:16:01 - 00:01:35:22
Leslie
Lasting recovery has a spiritual dimension, and that's what I'm excited to talk to him about today. Shai and I know each other through our work. One of my primary areas of expertise as a psychologist is addictions, and whenever we chat, we always have these pretty off the wall, totally quantum conversations. I'm really looking forward to sharing that with you.
00:01:36:00 - 00:02:00:16
Leslie
We're going to talk about the therapeutic use of psychedelics in treating addictions, the nature of reality, and so much more. Welcome, Joshua Blakeney. So before I ask you my first question, I'm just going to tell you something and then you can decide later if you want to keep this in. Like, it's just I'm agnostic on this, but there is there's something I want to tell you and all sincerity, because I think it's a really fun way to kind of like kick off this conversation.
00:02:00:16 - 00:02:19:08
Leslie
So I kind of have like a philosophy of my interviews where what I really love to do is, you know, I prepare quite a bit in advance. I think about all the questions I want to ask a person and then, pretty much without fail, you know, what I do is I just put them to the side, tend to forget about them.
00:02:19:10 - 00:02:38:14
Leslie
I like to know the first question that I'm going to ask someone I don't have, like, a slight sense of direction of, like, you know, where I kind of where I want to take the conversation, but generally speaking, ditch my notes. And I kind of have a theory of the case because when I listen to other people, conduct interviews where maybe they're like a little bit greener at it.
00:02:38:16 - 00:03:06:18
Leslie
There can be this, you know, they prepare all their questions and someone can say something and they like, miss a really good follow up question because they're too glued to, like, the question that they have an agenda around that they want to ask next. And I just have this feeling, based on the conversations that you and I have had in the past, that this is going to be a particularly fun version of that, that, you know, I'm just going to ask you the first question, and then we are just going to go wherever this conversation takes us, which I think is going to be a lot of fun.
00:03:06:20 - 00:03:30:18
Leslie
But so my first question for you is, you know, you are ultimately an advocate for something that is, in the big scheme of things, pretty unconventional, which is, therapeutic use of hallucinogens to treat addictions. And I wonder if you can kick us off today by telling me and our listeners a little bit about kind of what informs your thinking there, what fuels your passion for it?
00:03:30:18 - 00:03:37:07
Leslie
What are your thoughts about the therapeutic use of hallucinogens in treating addictions?
00:03:37:09 - 00:03:38:12
Shai
Great question.
00:03:38:13 - 00:03:43:16
Shai
Thanks. Good to see you. It's good to see you too. Honestly,
00:03:43:18 - 00:03:48:19
Shai
At the core is my experience with psychedelics, my personal experience with psychedelics.
00:03:48:23 - 00:03:49:05
Shai
Yeah.
00:03:49:05 - 00:03:53:17
Shai
So at the core of it, I think, is,
00:03:53:19 - 00:04:08:06
Shai
An experience of, utilizing psychedelics in a way that gave me more access to depth or give me more access to depth in a way that, helped my empathy grow, helped my awareness grow.
00:04:08:08 - 00:04:09:17
Shai
00:04:09:19 - 00:04:19:03
Shai
In a way that was exciting and interesting and, mysterious. And so at the, at the core was, a personal experience.
00:04:19:05 - 00:04:20:08
Shai
00:04:20:10 - 00:04:27:10
Shai
In terms of its usage in let's say, treatment of addiction or depression, anxiety, and other conditions.
00:04:27:12 - 00:04:28:14
Shai
00:04:28:16 - 00:04:39:17
Shai
When you work in the field of mental health and substance abuse in the arena that I work in, you see a lot of people suffering and a lot of people.
00:04:39:19 - 00:04:40:12
Shai
00:04:40:14 - 00:04:45:03
Shai
Not getting sober, not recovering, some dying.
00:04:45:05 - 00:04:47:13
Shai
Yeah. And,
00:04:47:15 - 00:04:52:18
Shai
If you pay close attention, a lot of the time, that has to do with, people's awareness.
00:04:52:19 - 00:04:53:18
Shai
00:04:53:20 - 00:05:00:03
Shai
And I don't just mean awareness in the cognitive sense. I also mean awareness in the sense of being connected.
00:05:00:05 - 00:05:00:13
Shai
Yeah.
00:05:00:13 - 00:05:05:23
Shai
You know, like that kind of kind of full body awareness. That full heart and head connection.
00:05:05:23 - 00:05:06:11
Shai
Awareness.
00:05:06:11 - 00:05:07:03
Leslie
Adherence.
00:05:07:05 - 00:05:07:15
Shai
Yeah.
00:05:07:17 - 00:05:25:02
Shai
Parents connection. And that's something very tragic about that. You know, just as a person to person, you're working with somebody and you can recognize that, the schema that they're operating under doesn't allow for them to be able to, take the next step.
00:05:25:04 - 00:05:26:04
Shai
00:05:26:06 - 00:05:41:13
Shai
And so I think most therapeutic modalities are attempting to help either get obstacles out of the way in order for that to happen or to raise consciousness in some way. And I think so. I mean, anybody who's paid any attention to those, the psychedelics.
00:05:41:13 - 00:05:41:18
Shai
Is.
00:05:42:00 - 00:05:44:22
Shai
Probably one of the most predictable ways to do that.
00:05:45:01 - 00:05:45:15
Shai
00:05:45:17 - 00:05:54:20
Shai
And the downside is, very low to me. So, like the risk of the downside is, probably much, much lower than one would think.
00:05:54:22 - 00:06:24:14
Leslie
We will come back to the downsides and the risks in a moment, just because I think it's really interesting from a, from a clinical point of view, in the sense of what makes other people afraid of this in ways that you're not. But it's just in terms of everything that you just said. There are so many different directions that I could take this in, but I feel like one of them is that part of what I hear you saying is that there is something that hallucinogens give a person that are hard to achieve another way, not impossible.
00:06:24:14 - 00:06:27:03
Leslie
But if nothing else, it might take more time.
00:06:27:05 - 00:06:27:11
Shai
Yeah.
00:06:27:15 - 00:06:28:16
Leslie
Which is.
00:06:28:18 - 00:06:28:19
Shai
A.
00:06:28:23 - 00:06:47:11
Leslie
Kind of a more expansive and expansive world view, an expansive sense of one's own consciousness, an expansive sense of one's like, you know, ability to relate to themselves and to others. And like, does that feel.
00:06:47:13 - 00:06:51:23
Shai
Yeah, I would, I would, I would add in there, a sense of the sacred.
00:06:52:01 - 00:06:53:01
Shai
Yeah.
00:06:53:03 - 00:07:14:02
Shai
Which I think becomes very difficult, to, to walk away from any significant psychedelic experience at least to the period before you forget what just happened. To, to come back with the same gestalt around how you think about the sacred. I mean, there are some people, obviously, that do psychedelics that.
00:07:14:04 - 00:07:15:07
Shai
You know.
00:07:15:09 - 00:07:23:11
Shai
I believe in God or become religious, but I think it's very few people that have had significant psychedelic experiences that would deny the spiritual aspect of reality anymore.
00:07:23:15 - 00:07:23:23
Shai
00:07:24:04 - 00:07:25:06
Shai
I mean, so so.
00:07:25:06 - 00:07:26:16
Shai
There's all of, you know, I think we.
00:07:26:17 - 00:07:38:19
Leslie
Up to the mysteries of the universe if nothing else. Right. Like it's, it, it, it awakens if it wasn't already awake, a sense of curiosity about maybe what we don't know or don't fully understand or, or has misunderstood or something. Right.
00:07:38:19 - 00:07:40:21
Shai
Yeah. Yeah. That even, you know, I.
00:07:40:21 - 00:08:02:17
Shai
Sort of have a Neoplatonic parts of me schema. And so I would say not just the mysteries like it opens. You actually experience can experience, higher orders of reality. So there's the mysteries of there. There's those, those things that were mysterious yesterday that you now experience are psychedelics where you go, oh, this is a higher order of reality that.
00:08:02:19 - 00:08:07:10
Shai
I still don't fully understand, but it's not as mysterious as it was yesterday. I didn't know it existed, you know.
00:08:07:10 - 00:08:12:08
Leslie
Can you say a little bit more about what you mean by higher order of reality? What does that mean for you?
00:08:12:10 - 00:08:13:08
Shai
00:08:13:10 - 00:08:16:00
Shai
I mean, that becomes a very difficult thing to talk about, obviously.
00:08:16:00 - 00:08:20:22
Shai
Yeah. Oh, sure. But.
00:08:21:00 - 00:08:48:23
Shai
You know, I think, like what, what example that Carl Jung, you know, talked about was, was synchronicities and it's, it's what actually the only instance is it his, philosophy really that he moves out of psychology. Right. I mean, people think about yoga as a deep mystic, but in fact, he was really attempting to use biology and psychology analysis, as a means to understand religion, spirituality, etc. so he actually really grounded almost all of it.
00:08:48:23 - 00:08:55:04
Shai
Yeah. In the mind that in the brain, obviously there's complexity and argument about that or is a complex.
00:08:55:04 - 00:08:55:15
Shai
Yeah.
00:08:55:19 - 00:09:05:16
Leslie
Sort of the constraints at the time. You know, I think he was really wrestling with things in a way that, there were some constraints to time. Yeah, yeah, understanding was consciousness.
00:09:05:16 - 00:09:08:09
Shai
Totally. But also what he was willing to say. And he had a career.
00:09:08:13 - 00:09:09:16
Shai
Oh, yes.
00:09:09:18 - 00:09:25:09
Shai
But obviously his idea of synchronicity was clearly a connection between a conscious experience and something happening in the world that can't be explained by normative materialism, physics, etc.. Right. But so that that's like a, you know, coincidence, synchronicity.
00:09:25:11 - 00:09:26:21
Shai
But what.
00:09:26:21 - 00:09:57:00
Shai
You experience on psychedelics is, the interconnections of reality that are at your, yourself and us in time, that normally are filtered out, I mean period of history. I think for humans to function, we filter out certain aspects of reality. But there are hi like I'm super ordinate orders that exist above ours. I also think there are intelligences above our everyday waking intelligence, which we shouldn't be so pompous about.
00:09:57:02 - 00:10:07:16
Shai
And you have access to, to to that and certain mystical states and spiritual states, and sometimes you just get sort of odd experiences, weird experiences and psychedelics.
00:10:07:20 - 00:10:08:16
Shai
00:10:08:18 - 00:10:32:00
Leslie
One of the things that you listed was that, you know, when you had initially these opening experiences with psychedelics, that one of the things that it opened up for you was, empathy. And I wonder if you can say a little bit more about kind of what shifted for you personally in a moment. I want to talk more about just what you see in other people and your your clinical work and stuff, but but, was it empathy for yourself?
00:10:32:00 - 00:10:36:20
Leslie
Was it empathy for others? Like what is you know, what exactly opened up for you?
00:10:36:20 - 00:10:38:05
Shai
Yeah, actually, you know, it's interesting.
00:10:38:05 - 00:10:46:14
Shai
I had done so like I've been recovery, so I used to drink and party and all that stuff. But I had done psychedelics first time I ever did it like I was. I was 11.
00:10:46:16 - 00:10:48:07
Shai
God. So I'm from.
00:10:48:07 - 00:10:51:00
Shai
Berkeley. This is like a normal right passage to Berkeley.
00:10:51:02 - 00:10:52:12
Shai
00:10:52:14 - 00:11:01:22
Shai
But I got sober 21, and so I went and did ayahuasca at, got a I think I was like 30, early 30s.
00:11:02:00 - 00:11:02:18
Shai
00:11:02:20 - 00:11:22:19
Shai
And my motivation to go drink ayahuasca was, I had been denying my, you know, it recovery. You try to become good. You see yourself as bad object. And I think that getting loaded, everybody around you see yourself as either bad or not enough or whatever you're is.
00:11:22:23 - 00:11:25:09
Leslie
Like even the notion of getting clean, right? It's like.
00:11:25:11 - 00:11:26:11
Shai
Yeah, 100%.
00:11:26:11 - 00:11:34:06
Shai
I mean, we all wrestle with that. But in recovery, what's what's partially what's partially what's motivating is guilt because I've been being a bad boy or whatever.
00:11:34:08 - 00:11:35:03
Shai
Yeah, yeah.
00:11:35:03 - 00:11:52:18
Shai
So I had that carrying for my own trauma for when I was little. And so there was a revelation in my early 30s that I had been sort of pursuing an image of the good and not connected to who I am and what I wanted, or my own desire or self. Any of that, it's that actually motivated me to go do psychedelics.
00:11:52:18 - 00:12:18:08
Shai
So that came out of a difficult moment. And so the genesis of my psychedelic experience was about empathy for myself. Now, would you doing ayahuasca and I went to Peru. You created a attention. I was stuck between two intentions, I think tells you so much about me. Still, but definitely at the time, what intention was. I want to open my heart and learn to give and receive more love.
00:12:18:10 - 00:12:24:13
Shai
That was my. That was what that I was holding. My other was. I want to know what this place is.
00:12:24:15 - 00:12:25:11
Leslie
This place.
00:12:25:12 - 00:12:26:03
Shai
Exists.
00:12:26:03 - 00:12:26:23
Leslie
Okay? Okay.
00:12:26:23 - 00:12:28:23
Shai
Yeah, yeah. How about that? Yeah.
00:12:29:01 - 00:12:31:07
Leslie
So I wasn't sure if you meant the treatment.
00:12:31:07 - 00:12:38:21
Shai
Yeah, that was podcast studio before I was even here. That's a real psychedelic trip to, you know.
00:12:38:21 - 00:12:42:00
Shai
Philosophy of philosophy, study philosophy. And I went.
00:12:42:00 - 00:12:49:17
Shai
With the philosophical world. Right. So. Okay. That's interesting. Right? It doesn't get tells you about me. Yeah. A day three. I did.
00:12:49:17 - 00:12:52:23
Shai
Seven ceremonies at the, Shapiro tradition.
00:12:53:00 - 00:12:53:06
Shai
Or.
00:12:53:06 - 00:12:56:11
Shai
Day three, I was overwhelmed with information.
00:12:56:16 - 00:12:57:19
Shai
00:12:57:21 - 00:13:00:11
Shai
I did want to know any. I, I said to.
00:13:00:14 - 00:13:06:02
Shai
I, you know, like, I don't want what it know any more about whatever. Shut it down.
00:13:06:08 - 00:13:06:23
Leslie
We've done enough.
00:13:06:23 - 00:13:08:08
Shai
Here. Got it. God.
00:13:08:08 - 00:13:13:05
Shai
And I called it, the infinity of Forms. I said, okay, I got it, I got it.
00:13:13:07 - 00:13:13:16
Shai
And.
00:13:13:16 - 00:13:17:11
Shai
I switched my attention to giving and receiving more.
00:13:17:11 - 00:13:20:06
Shai
Love. You know, and, Oh.
00:13:20:08 - 00:13:36:23
Leslie
Okay. Okay. Yeah. And and did that succeed? I'll tell you, I ask this question because it's interesting to me, but yeah. Did it succeed in shutting down the part that had become overwhelming? Like, did shifting your intention help to contain the part?
00:13:36:23 - 00:13:38:00
Shai
You know, there was a whole.
00:13:38:00 - 00:13:43:09
Shai
Other there's there's so many things that happened there that make it difficult to like track that through.
00:13:43:09 - 00:13:43:18
Shai
Line.
00:13:43:20 - 00:13:48:00
Shai
Yeah. In a simple way.
00:13:48:02 - 00:13:48:11
Shai
But.
00:13:48:16 - 00:13:53:18
Shai
What I would say is what I came to recognize was that what I really wanted was not more information.
00:13:53:18 - 00:14:16:14
Leslie
Yes, yes. The reason why I ask is because there is a general applicability here, and I sort of feel the need for the sake of, you know, listeners and viewers, just in case there's something in here that people can borrow from. But something I'm a big believer in. It's part of how I was trained, is to ask yourself at any given moment, even if you're having an experience that's slightly dis pleasurable, like, what would you like right now?
00:14:16:14 - 00:14:30:17
Leslie
What do I want? Because in this world of infinite kind of quantum possibilities, it helps to kind of constrain the field and you can get more of what you want by getting clarity around saying what you want. So it's just very interesting to me. It kind of, you know, pops up in my head to hear you say that.
00:14:30:17 - 00:14:38:07
Leslie
There was a moment where it was kind of like, okay, this is this is enough. I'm going to rejigger my intention to get to something slightly different. You know.
00:14:38:09 - 00:14:43:09
Shai
If you just make me think of there's a great quote by Huston Smith who wrote, World Religions.
00:14:43:11 - 00:14:43:20
Shai
Yeah.
00:14:43:22 - 00:14:50:16
Shai
Awesome, dude. The quote is you could never get enough of what you don't really want.
00:14:50:18 - 00:14:52:20
Leslie
Oh, say more about that.
00:14:52:22 - 00:14:54:09
Shai
I mean, you know, when I, when I.
00:14:54:11 - 00:15:02:18
Shai
I work in treatment. So when I study groups that I used to sometimes use that part of the book, you know, I talked about it in terms of addiction,
00:15:02:20 - 00:15:04:14
Shai
You know, like, oh, yeah.
00:15:04:15 - 00:15:13:05
Shai
The reason why you keep going back to this behavior or these types of relationships or is because it's not what you really want.
00:15:13:08 - 00:15:13:22
Shai
Yeah.
00:15:13:22 - 00:15:16:14
Shai
So you could never get enough of what you don't really want.
00:15:16:14 - 00:15:17:16
Leslie
Yes. Yeah.
00:15:17:17 - 00:15:18:08
Shai
Satisfying.
00:15:18:12 - 00:15:28:16
Leslie
Yeah. It kind of makes me think about the notion of manifestation. And in terms of how people will sometimes say we're technically always manifesting. It's just it oftentimes more manifesting what we don't.
00:15:28:16 - 00:15:30:03
Shai
Want.
00:15:30:05 - 00:15:35:20
Leslie
At that level of like what you resist persists. You know, it's like sometimes you just get inundated with like, oh.
00:15:35:20 - 00:15:36:09
Shai
I'd love to, but.
00:15:36:09 - 00:15:36:19
Leslie
You don't.
00:15:36:19 - 00:15:37:09
Shai
Want I don't.
00:15:37:09 - 00:15:48:22
Shai
Know if it's at this moment. But I know that there's, a split in my way of thinking about therapy. Sure. That I'm really curious about. I'm curious of your opinion at some point. It could be now, but.
00:15:48:23 - 00:15:52:18
Leslie
Yeah. Yeah. Why don't you just go for it? I'll bring us. I'll bring us back later.
00:15:52:18 - 00:15:54:16
Shai
Cool.
00:15:54:18 - 00:15:56:10
Shai
You know, design treatment programs.
00:15:56:14 - 00:15:57:04
Shai
00:15:57:06 - 00:16:02:10
Shai
And they're. I'm a big fan of psychoanalysis.
00:16:02:12 - 00:16:04:07
Shai
Huge. And I'm not.
00:16:04:07 - 00:16:06:17
Shai
Nearly as critical as many people are.
00:16:06:19 - 00:16:09:21
Leslie
Same just you know,
00:16:09:23 - 00:16:12:22
Shai
And for me there is still this.
00:16:12:22 - 00:16:20:21
Shai
Very interesting question, in the psychoanalytic frame, you're essentially attempting to work with people's guilt and shame for being.
00:16:20:23 - 00:16:22:03
Leslie
Yes, at least in part.
00:16:22:05 - 00:16:23:22
Shai
Yeah. And,
00:16:24:00 - 00:16:26:23
Shai
And bring to consciousness how that's operating in their personality.
00:16:27:04 - 00:16:33:21
Shai
In some sense. And, but you're, you're looking at.
00:16:33:23 - 00:16:42:03
Shai
You know, you're looking at the schmutz, you're looking at the difficulties, you know, you're looking at the difficult stuff. You're looking at the self attack. You're looking at the inner critic. You're looking at the superego.
00:16:42:03 - 00:16:43:22
Shai
Right? Yeah.
00:16:44:00 - 00:16:58:18
Shai
And you're going back to what happened before that was difficult. And you're also in recovery. You're looking at, your foibles and where you missed the market, you know, all this stuff. And I think about that and I hold that. Then with, more of a positive psychology, more of, sort of at Larian.
00:16:58:19 - 00:16:59:11
Shai
Yes.
00:16:59:13 - 00:17:04:07
Shai
Way of approaching where I wonder how much you think it's necessary.
00:17:04:09 - 00:17:04:22
Leslie
To go back.
00:17:05:00 - 00:17:07:20
Shai
At therapists to get into the mud.
00:17:07:22 - 00:17:08:23
Shai
Oh, it's such.
00:17:08:23 - 00:17:29:15
Leslie
A good question. And I actually love how all of this is sort of inter interweaving because we are we are still in this kind of nature of reality space, as far as I'm concerned. So I, I'm a huge fan of psychoanalysis. I sort of consider myself in a lot of ways to be a product of psychoanalysis.
00:17:29:15 - 00:17:51:16
Leslie
You know, among other things, it's not like product of psychoanalysis uniquely. But, when I was in my training years and I'm the kind of person who's had, you know, enough therapy to kill a horse in my life, and a lot of it has been analysis. And, so I never went through full blown analytic training, but I was trained as a therapist, you know, sort of to, to, to think analytically.
00:17:51:18 - 00:18:14:12
Leslie
And one of the things that I think is often misunderstood about analysis, if you just think about the divide of, like, let's say, being an analyst or being trained in that way versus the way maybe sometimes people think about it when they're not trained in that way. Is that, you know, it began with Freud and Jung and their contemporaries, but it has grown and evolved a lot since then.
00:18:14:12 - 00:18:48:02
Leslie
And as the thinking has grown and evolved, a lot of what it has become more oriented towards is, relationality and inter subjectivity, this sort of intersubjective field and that kind of stuff. And, there is a kind of a theory in the analytic space that I think is so deep and rich, which is just that the past is always present, so you don't actually have to go back at all because you're sort of dealing with the past by dealing with the present.
00:18:48:04 - 00:19:13:01
Leslie
Yeah. So in terms of, you know, when I think about this stuff, as someone who continues to practice as a psychotherapist, what I am so often tracking in my work is actually like what's happening between me and this person right now because the past continues to be present. So it's like, whatever. However this person is feeling in our work with each other, let's I could pick anything off the top of my head.
00:19:13:01 - 00:19:36:10
Leslie
Someone is worried, that they're going to offend me. You know, it's like there's so much richness in that space in the present moment, because the past is continuing to sort of refract in these ways. But no, I actually don't think I think that it can sometimes be useful to sort of think about the past only because we can create new narratives around it and we can recontextualize these things.
00:19:36:10 - 00:19:55:02
Leslie
We can learn to tell ourselves a better story and that kind of stuff. But if I'm working with somebody that does not want to go backwards for whatever reason, it could be a traumatic thing. Or it could just be a sort of like, I've done that before. I don't want to keep doing that. It's just kind of like going great.
00:19:55:05 - 00:19:58:23
Leslie
Like, where do you want to go from here? Like it's all.
00:19:59:00 - 00:19:59:17
Shai
Yeah.
00:19:59:18 - 00:20:01:18
Leslie
It constantly. It's in the present.
00:20:01:19 - 00:20:03:01
Shai
Yeah.
00:20:03:03 - 00:20:15:23
Shai
Makes sense. I I guess I wonder about Again I think for, for me and it's also in a lot of the work that I do, what I'm paying attention to is guilt and shame.
00:20:16:04 - 00:20:17:03
Shai
Yeah. Whatever. Yeah.
00:20:17:04 - 00:20:23:06
Shai
Just like a hyper focus of mine. Well, not for whatever reason, I think for good reason.
00:20:23:08 - 00:20:25:10
Shai
And.
00:20:25:12 - 00:20:30:00
Shai
You know, work in the addiction field. Yeah. So a lot of what's happening in addiction is bypassing.
00:20:30:02 - 00:20:30:20
Leslie
Yeah.
00:20:30:22 - 00:20:31:06
Shai
There's a lot of.
00:20:31:06 - 00:20:32:10
Shai
But then I.
00:20:32:12 - 00:20:34:12
Leslie
Might passing how just to clarify.
00:20:34:12 - 00:20:37:17
Shai
I mean, there's various forms, you know, like what do I mean by bypassing or what types of.
00:20:37:17 - 00:20:38:08
Shai
Bypassing.
00:20:38:11 - 00:20:42:01
Leslie
Either. Both. I just want to make sure people listening know what you're talking about.
00:20:42:03 - 00:20:43:21
Shai
Yeah. So I think.
00:20:43:23 - 00:20:57:22
Shai
One thing I'm always tracking in working with people is, their capacity, ego, strength, their capacity to be able to hold guilt in a moment, and their capacity to hold guilt without collapsing into shame or collapsing into a binary.
00:20:57:22 - 00:20:59:09
Shai
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:59:11 - 00:21:09:00
Shai
When people have a lot of trauma and a lot of shame, as you know, there is very little differentiation between, oh, this was a bad moment and I'm a bad person. And so.
00:21:09:00 - 00:21:11:22
Shai
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a bad moment.
00:21:12:00 - 00:21:14:22
Shai
Is the, the was it the match that broke the camel's back?
00:21:15:00 - 00:21:16:04
Shai
Right. Because there's.
00:21:16:04 - 00:21:34:21
Shai
So much shame there to be in the tension of feeling like you did something wrong in the moment. Feels like too much. They project out or project in and, they try to bypass the feeling of guilt as opposed to being able to attribute appropriate proportionality to it emotionally and cognitively. You'd be like, yeah, okay, it's a bad moment.
00:21:35:00 - 00:21:40:13
Shai
Let me think about that for, you know, today and I'll come back to you or whatever. And yeah, it's a little bit difficult, but I'm okay.
00:21:40:14 - 00:21:41:03
Shai
Yes.
00:21:41:03 - 00:21:51:00
Shai
Right. So I'm working with people and I think this happens with a lot of people that either it's like a narcissistic bypass, a spiritual bypass.
00:21:51:02 - 00:21:51:11
Shai
You know.
00:21:51:11 - 00:21:52:16
Shai
Borderlines, splits, you know.
00:21:52:16 - 00:21:53:06
Shai
All, all of.
00:21:53:06 - 00:21:54:02
Shai
The ways in which.
00:21:54:02 - 00:21:57:08
Shai
People, attempt to avoid being with.
00:21:57:10 - 00:22:14:12
Shai
The interpersonal, which feels too threatening. And so I wonder about the necessity for people to be able to make the connections of what happened in my past in order to achieve some self-compassion.
00:22:14:14 - 00:22:15:00
Shai
Yeah.
00:22:15:00 - 00:22:18:09
Shai
And self-understanding or a larger sort of almost,
00:22:18:11 - 00:22:21:02
Shai
Narrative container, to.
00:22:21:02 - 00:22:29:10
Shai
Be able to go, oh, that's why this is going on, right? Like meaning to make sense of it in such a way that that that helps bolster the ego strength to be able to tolerate them.
00:22:29:13 - 00:23:01:08
Leslie
Yeah. It's really interesting. So when I, when I hear you talk about guilt and shame, or, was it guilt that you said, or am I bringing up, I think, guilty and guilt. Guilt and shame. And then I think about the nature of blame, because there is this impulse that I, it's it's it's something that I just notice so much that the impulse to blame someone or something for whatever it is, and then it could be self-blame, it could be blame of other someone here has to be responsible.
00:23:01:08 - 00:23:29:06
Leslie
So like, who is to blame for this thing? And it's interesting because of course, you know, I can't help but feel like there's always like sort of some value in going backwards if we can. But again, it's present in the moment. You know, that if somebody is struggling with a tendency to blame, to attribute guilt to a certain party, or how do we help people to understand that from like a present moment awareness sense?
00:23:29:11 - 00:23:52:04
Leslie
And I almost wonder if that brings us full circle back to psychedelics, because there is this ability, when you're working in that way, to, you know, it's almost like, do you have to go backwards in a psychedelic sense in order to get some distance from these concepts? Oops. Yeah. Like, it just is. You just sort of, you know, put a stick of dynamite in it, right?
00:23:52:05 - 00:23:53:14
Shai
Not at all. But on some level.
00:23:53:16 - 00:24:07:18
Shai
Not at all. But I do very much think that often when people, do psychedelic work, it's, you know, it's an opening, you know? So, yeah. So more structures that were more rigid become more flexible, more open new neural pathways, all of that.
00:24:07:19 - 00:24:08:17
Shai
00:24:08:19 - 00:24:16:04
Shai
And so I think very frequently old material starts to come up and become recontextualized, not necessarily in the psychedelic spirit.
00:24:16:04 - 00:24:18:10
Shai
So though so although sometimes. Yeah. But.
00:24:18:11 - 00:24:28:15
Shai
But I think it's very rare that somebody would do psychedelics a few times and not have material either seen in a new way or, or new material altogether that.
00:24:28:19 - 00:24:31:01
Shai
Starts to come up.
00:24:31:03 - 00:24:50:21
Leslie
So in your work, because we were talking about you before and now I'm kind of curious, to hear a little bit more about the people that you work with at Recover Integrity and what and what you notice. What are some of the things that you maybe notice that let you know that a person is stuck or that hallucinogens would help something?
00:24:50:21 - 00:24:51:22
Shai
Oh yeah, that's great.
00:24:52:00 - 00:25:05:04
Shai
That's great. Well, first I want to make a distinction. I have two programs recovered Peggotty, which is an adult diagnosis mail program, and then a young adult program called antidote. And we don't use, classic psychedelics either. They're not legal in California.
00:25:05:06 - 00:25:05:16
Shai
We do.
00:25:05:16 - 00:25:07:03
Leslie
Use although ketamine treatments. Right.
00:25:07:06 - 00:25:12:04
Shai
Utilize ketamine, recovered integrity. And now they're with young adults in certain circumstances. We've done.
00:25:12:04 - 00:25:13:10
Shai
That. Yeah.
00:25:13:12 - 00:25:26:01
Shai
So that's just an important thing to say out loud, and I do I do think the law is important for a variety of reasons about just saying that. So, you know, whatever. Actually, I think people underestimate the importance of laws and rules.
00:25:26:03 - 00:25:29:15
Leslie
As like a kind of a container of sorts, like as something that or.
00:25:29:21 - 00:25:31:04
Shai
Oh, as the thing.
00:25:31:04 - 00:25:39:03
Shai
That, allows all of us to exist and reap the benefits of being in a society that I think people are very fast to write off.
00:25:39:05 - 00:25:40:15
Shai
And,
00:25:40:17 - 00:25:41:22
Leslie
Particularly these days, I.
00:25:41:22 - 00:25:42:16
Shai
Suppose, but we don't.
00:25:42:16 - 00:25:43:01
Leslie
Have to go down.
00:25:43:01 - 00:25:44:04
Shai
That road. So there's a whole that's.
00:25:44:04 - 00:25:58:20
Shai
A whole different discussion. But, so the first question is, you know, sort of. What our criteria for stuckness, where I think normative treatment is, not working anymore.
00:25:58:22 - 00:26:02:13
Shai
It's a good question. You know, it's a big one too. Yeah, yeah.
00:26:02:17 - 00:26:04:08
Shai
Let me reflect on that for a minute.
00:26:04:10 - 00:26:05:07
Shai
Take your time.
00:26:05:09 - 00:26:09:16
Shai
Yeah. Obviously I thought what answer? Different people are stuck in different ways.
00:26:09:18 - 00:26:13:19
Shai
00:26:13:21 - 00:26:35:19
Shai
These days, I think the things that I've paid most attention to is the level of connectedness that I feel. We we work in small groups, you know, working with, you know, ten, 15 people at a time. But I'm there hours and hours. I'm spending a lot of time, and I run five hours worth a group a week at what'd More at the other.
00:26:35:21 - 00:26:44:12
Shai
So the thing that I pay most close attention to is how people are concentrating. That felt sense I have of, how they're taking part of the community.
00:26:44:14 - 00:26:45:03
Shai
00:26:45:05 - 00:27:01:20
Shai
Because people orient themselves in very different ways. I mean, just as a funny example of somebody we have there now, we did it alumni picnic, and we were barbecue to play music. And, you know, everybody, I just watch where people go. It's like, okay, everybody's here. These two people are over there that this guy is like by himself five feet away.
00:27:01:22 - 00:27:21:19
Shai
This is like very early on at his treatment. So we didn't even know him that well. And I was like, oh, that very much is sort of a metaphor for probably his experience of his family system, his experience. Yeah. Life and and very much his challenge in enjoining recovery. He feels exiled, I.
00:27:21:19 - 00:27:23:04
Shai
Guess, in some way. Yeah.
00:27:23:10 - 00:27:30:07
Shai
There's a lot of clinical things happening and even neurocognitive things happening as well. So we we had a neurosis like, right. But ultimately.
00:27:30:09 - 00:27:31:01
Shai
The felt sense of.
00:27:31:01 - 00:27:34:22
Shai
Connectedness is, I think, a very big deal. And then.
00:27:34:22 - 00:27:36:15
Shai
00:27:36:17 - 00:27:37:14
Shai
Then people's capacity to.
00:27:37:14 - 00:27:41:01
Shai
Learn. Yeah. So, so.
00:27:41:01 - 00:28:02:03
Shai
Some people, can have a moment or lots of moments of insight and they could be connected, but they don't hold anything. Right. So nothing's being held. And I'm like, what's going on there? So sometimes that's a, a sign of like, oh, had some block there or maybe theological. Right. But but something's happening there. So those two are big.
00:28:02:03 - 00:28:05:16
Shai
And then we'll start there. Those are two.
00:28:05:16 - 00:28:34:00
Leslie
Sure. I'm also wondering about, instances where a person is really struggling to stay sober. Because it brings us back to what you were saying before about, potential downsides and risks, which I think a lot of, you know, I could just sort of say, like follow clinicians on my side of the field, perhaps overly index for, yeah.
00:28:34:02 - 00:28:47:18
Leslie
You know, the concerns that they have about potential downsides and risks and, you know, maybe not always being willing to recognize that if somebody could die from their addiction, you know, it's like there's risks all over the place here. So yeah.
00:28:47:20 - 00:29:04:23
Shai
Yeah. I mean, the thing that's most common for me to that I would see that recommend something like get a beta at other psychedelic if it's not my program is rigidity. Rigidity for me is the sort of obvious case where somebody has some let's say, infrastructure. Yeah, capacity for functionality.
00:29:05:00 - 00:29:05:19
Shai
00:29:06:10 - 00:29:10:22
Shai
But they're rigid and they're cut off, you know, and they're overly, you know.
00:29:11:03 - 00:29:11:11
Shai
00:29:11:11 - 00:29:23:08
Shai
Cognitive or intellectualize, where you can't feel that bad relationship. So, I mean, I tend to think psychedelics are just fantastic for rigidity. So that's for me, the obvious case.
00:29:23:10 - 00:29:23:17
Shai
What.
00:29:23:17 - 00:29:47:16
Shai
You're saying, I think is huge for the recovery community, certain aspect of the recovery community, think that I'm somewhat radical. I don't think so at all. I mean, I mean, for me, and it goes to what you're saying, which is from my point of view, if somebody is using fentanyl or methamphetamine and they relapsing and they've been to treatment seven times.
00:29:47:18 - 00:29:48:08
Shai
00:29:48:10 - 00:29:49:09
Shai
We're concerned.
00:29:49:14 - 00:29:50:12
Shai
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:50:12 - 00:29:51:12
Shai
About psilocybin.
00:29:51:12 - 00:29:51:20
Shai
Yeah.
00:29:52:00 - 00:29:58:14
Shai
But I'd say there's no risk there. But it's sort of people don't calculate the risk of not doing something.
00:29:58:16 - 00:29:59:08
Shai
Because because you're.
00:29:59:08 - 00:30:11:13
Shai
Looking at the liability of the thing you're doing, not the liability of if I don't do it, what am I, what am I greatest regrets. Because I have a very good friend and her husband was dying of cancer. He's actually a wonderful psychologist incredible clinician.
00:30:11:16 - 00:30:13:02
Shai
00:30:13:04 - 00:30:33:05
Shai
And we had talked about doing a psilocybin session end of life psilocybin session. And I got scared. I got scared because he was really fragile. And I thought he might die on my couch. And I thought his wife, who I'm also very close with, was gonna blame me, blame blame, even though she was kind of on board and so was it that I, you know, it was like, I'm not going to do it.
00:30:33:05 - 00:30:34:19
Shai
I just did it.
00:30:34:21 - 00:30:38:18
Shai
Make it happen? Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was fear.
00:30:38:18 - 00:30:39:21
Shai
It it was like, oh, like, you.
00:30:39:21 - 00:30:40:19
Shai
Know, like. Yes.
00:30:40:21 - 00:30:46:06
Shai
And he died a very difficult death. Yeah. It's one of my larger regrets, you know.
00:30:46:06 - 00:30:46:17
Shai
Yeah.
00:30:46:19 - 00:30:49:23
Shai
You know, you don't realize that until after you don't do the thing.
00:30:50:01 - 00:31:12:05
Leslie
Right, you know? Right. Yeah. The way in which, like, fear can stop us. Yeah. It feels, important for me to say to. And this is where we get into such interesting territory with kind of, like, laws and regulations, to your point, and also kind of cultural mores. But there are some pretty incredible examples of drugs like ibogaine.
00:31:12:05 - 00:31:41:18
Leslie
Yeah. Creating really, truly kind of spontaneous remission effectively. With heroin addiction and that kind of stuff, where part of what we see, at least in sort of anecdotal, sort of literature and I can't recall actually, right now exactly how much this has been, empirically studied, although I do think there have been some empirical studies that this, sort of that the hold that addiction can have over you can be spontaneously evaporated.
00:31:41:20 - 00:31:42:10
Leslie
00:31:42:11 - 00:31:43:14
Shai
Yeah. I mean look at the.
00:31:43:14 - 00:31:44:07
Shai
The.
00:31:44:07 - 00:31:48:08
Shai
12 step founders and Carl.
00:31:48:08 - 00:31:49:12
Shai
Jung thought.
00:31:49:12 - 00:31:54:15
Shai
That the only cure for addiction in the 30s was, a spontaneous remission from spiritual experience.
00:31:54:18 - 00:31:55:11
Shai
Right? I mean.
00:31:55:11 - 00:32:02:16
Shai
The whole 12 step culture, which is by far the most successful, robust support system for addicts and alcoholics.
00:32:02:18 - 00:32:04:09
Shai
Was built on the idea that.
00:32:04:14 - 00:32:21:13
Shai
A spiritual awakening could create spontaneous remission. Yes. And how do we build communities to attempt to inculcate a spiritual likely. So it happens, you know, the ibogaine numbers in the clinics are, a little bit better or maybe comparable to something like 60 to 90 days of treatment.
00:32:21:15 - 00:32:21:23
Leslie
Okay.
00:32:22:04 - 00:32:23:04
Shai
But,
00:32:23:06 - 00:32:41:12
Shai
It's important to point out that that is usually over a 5 or 10 day period. And the infrastructure for integration and containment and the recovery infrastructure. What does it mean for me to be a person that recovers using ibogaine in a normally abstinence based culture barely.
00:32:41:12 - 00:32:42:15
Shai
Exists, right.
00:32:42:17 - 00:32:45:13
Shai
And so the rates are roughly the same.
00:32:45:18 - 00:32:46:01
Shai
But the.
00:32:46:01 - 00:32:51:16
Shai
Cost at the time are completely different. I mean, one of the things I'm doing has been working on opening up a psychedelic treatment.
00:32:51:16 - 00:32:52:16
Shai
Program for at.
00:32:52:21 - 00:32:53:16
Shai
About six months.
00:32:53:16 - 00:32:54:00
Shai
Okay.
00:32:54:06 - 00:33:11:11
Shai
And it's to address this kind of major issue where there are things about a well-run treatment community that are phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal, because nobody gets to stop their lives, could be at a place of wisdom, have a place that has clinical expertise addressing it.
00:33:11:12 - 00:33:11:16
Shai
I mean.
00:33:11:16 - 00:33:12:15
Shai
Address all of it like a.
00:33:12:15 - 00:33:15:22
Shai
Good treatment program to be incredibly holistic.
00:33:16:00 - 00:33:26:16
Shai
If you add in for the appropriate clients psychedelics to a long term two year program, 60 days or more, I mean it will have its issues I'm sure, but I think it'll be nothing like it.
00:33:26:18 - 00:33:27:20
Shai
I think there'll be nothing like it there.
00:33:27:20 - 00:33:43:07
Leslie
So there's a, there's a direction I'm wanting to go in, I want to take us on a tiny left turn. But before I do I think something I just want to comment on because it's so interesting to me here, is I think about cultural values that we have, at least in the United States, about the value of hard work.
00:33:43:09 - 00:34:02:09
Leslie
And it feels like one of the things that some people are a little bit reticent around is it's almost like, what value is lost if we make anything easier for people? You know, it's almost like, is 90 days of treatment better if you have to work really hard for it? It's kind of a Protestant thing we've kind of got going in the United States.
00:34:02:09 - 00:34:05:04
Leslie
Yeah. In our culture writ large. But is there anything.
00:34:05:04 - 00:34:05:14
Shai
Like.
00:34:05:16 - 00:34:08:08
Shai
Cheating your way to spirituality or cheating your way to cheating.
00:34:08:08 - 00:34:09:06
Leslie
Your way to to. Yeah, I.
00:34:09:06 - 00:34:10:06
Shai
Think I think we could tend to.
00:34:10:06 - 00:34:17:03
Shai
Think that way. I don't think there's nothing to that. I mean, so I wouldn't say that like, oh, there's no truth of that, right?
00:34:17:03 - 00:34:19:08
Shai
Like,
00:34:19:10 - 00:34:32:06
Shai
I do think that there is something true about the things that I find most valuable, that I know to be true about me and my character in my life weren't easy.
00:34:32:08 - 00:34:32:18
Shai
Yeah.
00:34:32:18 - 00:34:35:07
Shai
So there is something true about that.
00:34:35:09 - 00:34:38:19
Shai
Yeah. However,
00:34:38:21 - 00:34:40:22
Shai
Having a psychedelic experience that that.
00:34:41:04 - 00:34:41:17
Shai
Loosens.
00:34:41:17 - 00:34:45:18
Shai
Or frees you from the grip of particular patterns.
00:34:45:20 - 00:34:47:13
Shai
Does not give you.
00:34:47:13 - 00:34:52:11
Shai
A shortcut to having to figure out how to live your life.
00:34:52:13 - 00:34:57:14
Shai
You know, it doesn't make it, does it make it's not a magic bullet in that absolutely sense of it, right?
00:34:57:14 - 00:35:00:23
Leslie
No, that's a very, very good kind of clarification and correction.
00:35:00:23 - 00:35:02:12
Shai
And there's in this particular psychedelic.
00:35:02:12 - 00:35:21:18
Shai
Trajectories that people have. So, you know, a lot of the time the trajectory I see is just, you know, it's really big experience. People get very excited about psychedelics. Certain personalities tend to overdo it, not in a way that's necessarily detrimental, but they get really into doing psychedelics a lot. Then they start having bad experiences that they slow down and then they start to do long term integration.
00:35:21:18 - 00:35:33:07
Shai
After a couple of years where it's like, okay, I do a couple of psychedelic sessions a year, or I do it this way. And, you know, there's a maturity kind of, trajectory that happens, like with everything.
00:35:33:09 - 00:35:33:15
Shai
You know?
00:35:33:15 - 00:35:36:23
Shai
I mean, everything is a process. Everything happens over time.
00:35:37:01 - 00:35:41:00
Shai
So I don't think there's nothing to it. But I don't think.
00:35:41:00 - 00:35:52:06
Shai
Anybody who has a loved one who is suffering from a, you know, major depressive disorder or a horrible addiction, and sees what could happen in three days.
00:35:52:11 - 00:35:53:13
Shai
You know, excuse me.
00:35:53:13 - 00:35:59:11
Shai
It's six hours, in the proper container with the proper preparation and post work would hold that opinion.
00:35:59:11 - 00:36:18:00
Leslie
After, you know, 100%. But I think that, I think I'm talking about more the cultural mores that shape our laws and that also shape what constitutes empirically validated treatment. You know, that there's there's a reason why we have been slow to adopt this.
00:36:18:02 - 00:36:20:06
Shai
That's an interesting question. What do you think? What's your I.
00:36:20:06 - 00:36:21:18
Shai
Mean, I can think about it. Well, I think a.
00:36:21:18 - 00:36:37:07
Leslie
Lot of his fear. Yeah, I think it's, it's fear. It's over indexing for what could go wrong without thinking about what could go right. Yeah. I do think a lot of the stuff is shifting as we speak, and I wouldn't be surprised in the next, you know, 510, 20 years, things could change a lot.
00:36:37:09 - 00:36:38:00
Shai
I, you know.
00:36:38:00 - 00:36:41:03
Shai
I, I Bailey on that side, obviously I'm back here talking.
00:36:41:03 - 00:36:43:21
Shai
About what it was like to achieve in progress. Yeah.
00:36:43:23 - 00:36:47:19
Shai
The other side of it for me.
00:36:47:21 - 00:36:51:11
Shai
Is.
00:36:51:12 - 00:37:00:23
Shai
Psychedelic medicine is incredibly powerful. Yeah. I mean, from, you know, ketamine all the way up to five embryo DMT to ibogaine.
00:37:01:01 - 00:37:02:12
Shai
These are.
00:37:02:14 - 00:37:05:20
Shai
You know, nuclear power when it comes to consciousness.
00:37:05:22 - 00:37:09:20
Shai
I mean, it's such a good way of putting really, really, you know, and I have.
00:37:09:20 - 00:37:12:16
Shai
Had psychedelic experiences.
00:37:12:18 - 00:37:13:12
Shai
00:37:13:14 - 00:37:18:08
Shai
Again, it could be paranoia or it could be, you know, caution.
00:37:18:11 - 00:37:18:17
Shai
00:37:18:23 - 00:37:23:21
Shai
That how we introduce these medicines.
00:37:23:23 - 00:37:24:08
Shai
Into.
00:37:24:08 - 00:37:25:22
Shai
Community and society.
00:37:25:22 - 00:37:30:14
Leslie
Yes. Where like shadows are present and we can mean that in more than one way.
00:37:30:18 - 00:37:31:09
Shai
I mean this is a.
00:37:31:09 - 00:37:44:00
Shai
Vision I have is we have a little bit weird. But I had a vision, I had a psychedelic exhibit, I had a vision. I was like, I don't know, ten years ago. And in the vision, what came to be, I don't know if it's true or not. I don't even care. Just was the vision.
00:37:44:02 - 00:37:44:19
Shai
Was.
00:37:44:19 - 00:37:50:05
Shai
That humanity at different points had had access to different.
00:37:50:07 - 00:37:51:00
Shai
00:37:51:02 - 00:38:01:22
Shai
Orders of reality, often through using psychedelic medicine. And each time it had failed. I mean, each time society had regressed post,
00:38:02:00 - 00:38:05:11
Shai
That was a vision. Yeah, I don't know. You know, I've had paranoid visions.
00:38:05:11 - 00:38:10:04
Shai
I've had, you know, stuff that's come true, but I, I took it somewhat seriously that I.
00:38:10:04 - 00:38:12:15
Shai
Went, hey, you know, we should probably pay very.
00:38:12:15 - 00:38:15:19
Shai
Close attention to how we introduce this into our communities and move slowly.
00:38:15:20 - 00:38:42:03
Leslie
Well, you're teaming up perfectly for the left turn that I just mentioned. But part of what comes up for me is I just sort of think about the notion of the ego, which was a big word. It can mean more than one thing. But, you know, part of what it does is mediate it impulses and superego impulses. And there's a part of me that can imagine how what you're saying could be true, because we're sort of like in some ways unleashing our ends in a way interesting, you know, in a way.
00:38:42:05 - 00:38:50:02
Leslie
But so, Bree, let me ask you really quickly. Are you okay? I couldn't see you. I just want to do a quick time check because I'm, like, on another planet right now.
00:38:50:04 - 00:38:51:01
Shai
35.
00:38:51:03 - 00:39:11:03
Leslie
Okay. Perfect. That I kind of had a feeling that that's what we were looking at, but. So I want to I want to shift gears ever so slightly because there is something that's kind of just dancing in this conversation that's so interesting to me. And, you know, you and I have only met a couple of times, but every time we we have an opportunity to chat, the conversation always gets kind of quantum.
00:39:11:03 - 00:39:38:21
Leslie
And I, you know, in in ways that I really love. And you know, I'm just sort of thinking about my own history with this stuff because I have done hallucinogens, but they were not the thing that really ultimately created what I would call a effectively a spiritual awakening. Like my the avenue for me for that came differently. I through went down a different kind of quantum physics rabbit hole and found the Akashic records.
00:39:38:21 - 00:40:03:08
Leslie
And I've done previous episodes on this stuff. So the people that listen to this podcast are perhaps familiar with that. But when you were talking before about your own psychedelic experiences, you were kind of talking about the way in which psychedelics can open us up to something that's greater. And there's a really interesting it's so endlessly fascinating to me, the way in which the brain mediates this stuff.
00:40:03:11 - 00:40:29:22
Leslie
Right? Because the brain is the thing that kind of mediates our own. Oh, God, the way that we look at life and make sense of reality and all of this stuff. And it's also how we have mystical experiences. And, you know, it's this kind of endlessly complex organism. And so I wonder if you want to say a little bit more about this notion of higher order experiences and your own.
00:40:30:00 - 00:40:52:04
Leslie
You know, you said something before the tape got rolling about, what did you call it? The Wolf experience. That was the your the empirical miracle. And I just would love to, at least for a moment, kind of dance in this space with you, because I have a feeling you just have a lot of wisdom to offer. And probably just some very quantum kind of thoughts about this stuff.
00:40:52:04 - 00:41:00:00
Leslie
But do you want to do you want to start by maybe telling me where your brain goes as I start connecting these dots?
00:41:00:02 - 00:41:00:08
Shai
Can.
00:41:00:08 - 00:41:02:07
Leslie
You feel the left turn I'm trying to make?
00:41:02:07 - 00:41:04:02
Shai
Yeah. I mean.
00:41:04:04 - 00:41:10:02
Shai
The there's a some thinkers that I've been engaged with that are attempting to bridge cognitive science.
00:41:10:03 - 00:41:10:10
Shai
Yeah.
00:41:10:14 - 00:41:19:05
Shai
A Neoplatonic thought of in spirituality and attempting to find accurate language maps.
00:41:19:07 - 00:41:19:23
Shai
That.
00:41:20:04 - 00:41:26:17
Shai
Are the bridge between science of spirituality, which, has had a split, since the enlightenment.
00:41:26:19 - 00:41:27:05
Shai
00:41:27:07 - 00:41:29:10
Shai
Right. Sort of religion and spirituality split off.
00:41:29:10 - 00:41:29:23
Shai
Yeah.
00:41:30:01 - 00:41:47:15
Shai
During the birth of modern science. And so I actually think that we were by by to be really goals is that we're at this very privileged time in all kinds of issues, but a very privileged time where science and spirituality are actually starting to bridge in very serious scientists a very serious spiritual people.
00:41:47:21 - 00:41:49:12
Shai
Yeah. Are.
00:41:49:12 - 00:42:03:10
Shai
Participating in a new conversation because we've come to realize that the Baps scientific materialism is dead. I mean, there's hardly any buddy who I take seriously who's a scientific materialist.
00:42:03:12 - 00:42:06:00
Shai
So that's kind of where my mind goes. Yeah. And will.
00:42:06:00 - 00:42:09:00
Leslie
You unpack the term Neoplatonic for.
00:42:09:00 - 00:42:09:23
Shai
Us?
00:42:10:01 - 00:42:22:12
Shai
Sure. It's a a complex term. But basically it comes out of Plato, and Plato had a system of thought or extracted a system of thought from his.
00:42:22:12 - 00:42:24:04
Shai
Writings,
00:42:24:06 - 00:42:33:21
Shai
That had a schema to it that was mandatory so that there is a sort of a source of creation, or the one that's called the Neoplatonic.
00:42:34:01 - 00:42:34:07
Shai
Of the.
00:42:34:09 - 00:42:36:00
Shai
Titus.
00:42:36:02 - 00:42:37:16
Shai
And there are.
00:42:37:18 - 00:42:39:20
Shai
Ontological real.
00:42:39:22 - 00:42:41:14
Shai
Levels.
00:42:41:16 - 00:42:43:07
Shai
Of existence.
00:42:43:09 - 00:42:44:18
Shai
Yeah. From the world.
00:42:44:18 - 00:43:06:06
Shai
To our so-called material existence here. But there's a sort of complexity about how that kind of works with each other. But if you're just imagining, oh, there's closer and further away from source and that each level is real, at each level is interacting with the level next to it. But you can think about levels like scales.
00:43:06:07 - 00:43:13:17
Shai
So if we think about the body, for instance, we have the quantum called the probability level of reality and of our existence.
00:43:13:19 - 00:43:14:20
Shai
Us you have.
00:43:14:20 - 00:43:26:04
Shai
A quantum probability happening right now. Inside of us is what science tells us, right? That's not that's true. I don't understand it. Well, we have an atomic level with quarks. We have an atomic level. It's a.
00:43:26:04 - 00:43:26:19
Shai
Real.
00:43:26:19 - 00:43:29:04
Shai
Scale or level of existence.
00:43:29:06 - 00:43:29:10
Shai
That.
00:43:29:10 - 00:43:49:06
Shai
We have a molecular level or that we have a cellular level, that we have an organ level, that we have a body that we have, our environment. Right. So these are until logically real scales that interact with each other, but are also distinct. And if we could imagine, that there is a multi scalar schema that exists beyond.
00:43:49:09 - 00:43:49:16
Shai
Yeah.
00:43:49:16 - 00:43:59:00
Shai
What we've mapped. I mean, why would that be the case when we know that there are certain, limits that our bodies have in what it can perceive? Yes. At any given.
00:43:59:00 - 00:44:24:00
Leslie
Time. Yes. The way, something I'll jump in here with, because I so often think about this and it helps to kind of, bridge these different ways of thinking about things for a moment. Is it? It's fascinating to think that our human senses, sight, touch, all of that stuff is designed to interact with the world at the level of classical physics, but we know from quantum mechanics and that kind of stuff that that is not reality per se yet.
00:44:24:05 - 00:44:40:21
Leslie
So it's interesting to think that. And there's a there's kind of an interesting thought that's coming to mind for me that I mostly just want to kind of put into the field. And you respond to this obviously, however you want. But mostly I think for our listeners, I'm just feeling compelled to say this. It's really interesting to think about the nature of psychosis, right?
00:44:40:21 - 00:45:07:01
Leslie
Because I think that for a long time people were afraid to have conversations like this because of what could sound crazy. And it's interesting to think that, like, you know, psychosis is a real phenomenon. It's a thing that we can talk about in a lot of ways. One very simple way of saying it is that there's, something happens that makes it so that this fractal ization of reality becomes hard, if not impossible, to hold.
00:45:07:01 - 00:45:40:04
Leslie
You know, as someone who has worked with psychotic patients and has a lot of experience with that, there are things that we don't understand about psychotic experiences. But I think what we can say is that there's a sort of a fracturing of the ego that makes it so that the very thing that you just said is like, it's like it's impossible to comprehend, but there's this desire that I have to kind of bring it more and more into the fold of public discourse, that we can have these well held conversations about the nature of reality and how humans experience it.
00:45:40:04 - 00:45:42:14
Leslie
And so I just I don't know, that was what came to me.
00:45:42:16 - 00:45:45:23
Shai
Yeah, I think it's beautiful. I think one of my part, I.
00:45:45:23 - 00:45:48:02
Shai
Think.
00:45:48:04 - 00:45:51:23
Shai
I'm really into recovery. So I'm really into learning because recovery is a process of learning.
00:45:51:23 - 00:45:52:02
Shai
Yeah.
00:45:52:06 - 00:45:55:21
Leslie
Oh I'm like learning and growth is my entire.
00:45:55:23 - 00:45:57:06
Shai
And I think so much.
00:45:57:06 - 00:46:00:17
Shai
Learning actually comes from relationship. Like I'm sitting here talking to you.
00:46:00:17 - 00:46:01:04
Leslie
Yeah.
00:46:01:09 - 00:46:03:10
Shai
And we've had a couple of deep conversations.
00:46:03:12 - 00:46:05:00
Shai
In.
00:46:05:02 - 00:46:07:14
Shai
If we really started to spend time together.
00:46:07:16 - 00:46:11:07
Shai
I could begin to get a feel,
00:46:11:09 - 00:46:13:21
Shai
For your perspective, for what it's like to be you.
00:46:13:23 - 00:46:14:06
Shai
And so I.
00:46:14:06 - 00:46:21:12
Shai
Actually think so much of our learning comes from interacting with people, and starting to see the world through their eyes.
00:46:21:12 - 00:46:22:01
Leslie
Yes.
00:46:22:01 - 00:46:26:04
Shai
Yeah. There's a guy named Doctor Jabberwocky who's both a friend and a teacher.
00:46:26:06 - 00:46:28:07
Shai
Who?
00:46:28:09 - 00:46:36:12
Shai
I've listened to a billion of his lectures, and now we've had a couple of zooms and exchange papers and stuff like that, and I got to experience the world through his eyes.
00:46:36:15 - 00:46:37:18
Shai
Yeah. And what's it like?
00:46:37:18 - 00:46:49:07
Shai
How he experiences being at a body that he happens to be, like, a highly intellectual guy. So it comes with all this, like, really cool theory, but ultimately through his gesticulation with his fingers.
00:46:49:12 - 00:46:55:18
Shai
And you know what he's into, like when I with this guy, I enhance is.
00:46:55:18 - 00:47:00:20
Shai
What it is like to be having my experience as a person because I get to try it out a little bit.
00:47:00:22 - 00:47:01:17
Shai
Yeah. And so what.
00:47:01:17 - 00:47:08:06
Shai
Are the things that I have tried to do it by group work in some sense is let the people get to know.
00:47:08:06 - 00:47:12:05
Shai
Me. Not in a narcissistic way, but I'm like, hey, come look.
00:47:12:05 - 00:47:13:14
Shai
At this with me. Look at it this way.
00:47:13:14 - 00:47:17:03
Shai
Hey, experience this one, you know, get it, get it by testing.
00:47:17:08 - 00:47:26:13
Shai
Because a huge part of my recovery journey has been getting more and more in my body. Yes, connecting more and more to my heart. Both my physiological heart and.
00:47:26:13 - 00:47:31:12
Shai
My, Yeah. Symbolic heart. Yes. It really, really.
00:47:31:12 - 00:47:34:00
Shai
Learning how to feel here and vital.
00:47:34:02 - 00:47:35:22
Shai
And people could pick.
00:47:35:22 - 00:47:37:06
Shai
Up on that through interaction.
00:47:37:06 - 00:47:37:22
Leslie
Absolutely.
00:47:37:22 - 00:47:38:21
Shai
And then there's all.
00:47:38:21 - 00:47:46:20
Shai
Of the theory and all the fun stuff we love to talk about. But so much to me is that, like, can you relate to me and see a little bit through my eyes? You know.
00:47:46:22 - 00:48:04:23
Leslie
God, there's so much in there I want to respond to because I think you're so spot on. And so there's this very clunky theory in the, in the field of psychology, which is the notion of theory of mind, which is part of what I hear you saying, you know, it's this thing that is sort of extends beyond and is sort of greater than even empathy per se.
00:48:05:00 - 00:48:29:04
Leslie
But it's like, can I enter your subjective universe and try to kind of understand it from the inside out? And I do think that it's a really big part of what's missing in our culture right now. Like there's such a tremendous collapse on empathy and nuance and theory of mind that a lot of people are not. I mean, what a fucking foreign concept that you just laid down for us for a lot of people.
00:48:29:04 - 00:49:06:10
Leslie
Right? And yet I know exactly what you mean, and I think that there is this way I really hear you in the kind of, not wanting to sound narcissistic about it, but I think when I think about my role as a therapist, part of what I'm often aware of is that I am allowing people to borrow from my consciousness in the sense that if I am working with somebody who is inclined to blame, just to use the sort of example from, you know, disorder that we've been talking about, I, if I am able to have a more expansive awareness that is not oriented towards blame, then some of that is going to be
00:49:06:10 - 00:49:38:23
Leslie
transmitted from the actual conversation that we have. But part of it is transmitted through my actual presence. Like I might not ever have to say out loud the thing that I'm thinking, but when you create an intersubjective field, you create this like field of awareness. And I and I can feel it in you very much. I want you to know one of the reasons why I was so excited to have this conversation with you today is because I think that when a person has done a lot of work on themselves, there's a way in which they are embodied in their own presence, and they walk with that in the world.
00:49:38:23 - 00:49:41:14
Leslie
And you very much so walk with that in the world.
00:49:41:14 - 00:49:42:16
Shai
Thank you. Yeah.
00:49:42:21 - 00:49:44:16
Shai
Thank you. I'll give credit to my.
00:49:44:17 - 00:49:45:05
Shai
Dad a little bit.
00:49:45:05 - 00:49:47:01
Leslie
I love that, I love that.
00:49:47:03 - 00:49:49:06
Shai
Well, yeah, exactly.
00:49:49:08 - 00:49:59:07
Leslie
And yourself, because you have done an extraordinary amount of work on yourself and in cultivating the presence that you move through the world with.
00:49:59:09 - 00:49:59:22
Shai
Thank you for that.
00:50:00:01 - 00:50:06:19
Shai
So what is can I say one little thing about it? Because this is a great map for listeners, please. So what are the things that your Reiki teaches?
00:50:06:21 - 00:50:07:04
Shai
Oh, that.
00:50:07:04 - 00:50:09:11
Shai
I thought was so helpful. I love to teach it.
00:50:09:13 - 00:50:10:10
Shai
00:50:10:12 - 00:50:13:20
Shai
Is he he says, you know, there's different types of learning.
00:50:13:22 - 00:50:14:21
Shai
00:50:14:23 - 00:50:15:23
Shai
Different types of knowing.
00:50:15:23 - 00:50:16:20
Shai
Yeah.
00:50:16:22 - 00:50:31:01
Shai
And he says, we've lived in an age for 300 years in the west of propositional tyranny, where we think the only kind of learning is learning through Aristotelian logic, through just, you know, logic. Does this make sense? This does it, you know?
00:50:31:02 - 00:50:32:16
Shai
Yeah.
00:50:32:18 - 00:50:53:10
Shai
And he says, well, actually, there are four types of, of knowing maybe more, but he I think four covers a lot. And he says there's the propositional learning a no, he he says there's the perspectival building. The example he uses is there are people that control the Mars rover Mars, and there are these joysticks and headsets that they use to control the Mars rover.
00:50:53:10 - 00:50:59:00
Shai
And they have to embody what it's like to be a mars rover. And they are using their magical capacity.
00:50:59:00 - 00:50:59:21
Shai
Oh, I love that.
00:50:59:21 - 00:51:01:17
Shai
To take on the perspective of the Mars rover.
00:51:01:17 - 00:51:02:22
Leslie
Yes, yes.
00:51:02:22 - 00:51:11:11
Shai
Or I could find myself doing a dance. I like to dance a lot and I go, I got I got that from this client who was doing that little jig. And like later that day I just.
00:51:11:13 - 00:51:13:17
Shai
Got rid of that that client was doing and I'm like, oh, it's.
00:51:13:17 - 00:51:15:02
Shai
Their body, their.
00:51:15:02 - 00:51:16:22
Shai
Perspective. Yeah. So there's a perspective.
00:51:16:22 - 00:51:19:19
Shai
There's the propositional, the perspective or procedural.
00:51:19:21 - 00:51:21:09
Shai
Yeah. Which is really.
00:51:21:09 - 00:51:43:14
Shai
Important when you're working with certain clients. Because if the procedural mind is off and they can't follow certain steps to do something, it becomes that's the sort of learning issue that I was talking about, you know? So if there's something going on with the procedural, you have to address it cognitively because people need to be able to follow three 4 or 5, six, seven steps in order to function, and especially in something as complex as recovery or something like that.
00:51:43:19 - 00:51:51:04
Shai
So there's the procedural learning that his favorite, which is probably the biggest, is participatory learning. The difference between reading a.
00:51:51:04 - 00:51:51:19
Shai
Book.
00:51:51:21 - 00:51:52:20
Shai
About baseball.
00:51:53:00 - 00:51:56:00
Shai
Yes. And then playing baseball. Yes. The difference between.
00:51:56:00 - 00:51:59:13
Shai
Playing baseball and becoming a baseball player.
00:51:59:13 - 00:52:00:02
Shai
Right.
00:52:00:05 - 00:52:03:05
Shai
It's also one of the reasons this is controversial.
00:52:03:07 - 00:52:05:02
Shai
That I, I'm.
00:52:05:02 - 00:52:08:13
Shai
Hesitant about getting rid of the word addict.
00:52:08:15 - 00:52:10:00
Shai
As a label.
00:52:10:01 - 00:52:20:16
Shai
So if there's like a stigma against like, don't label me like that. And that's obviously a personal choice. I don't I'm not some fascist about it. But I always say there is.
00:52:20:16 - 00:52:22:19
Shai
Something want to logical one.
00:52:22:19 - 00:52:23:08
Leslie
Hundred percent.
00:52:23:09 - 00:52:28:09
Shai
About becoming an addict. Yes. You could see somebody who's like.
00:52:28:14 - 00:52:30:17
Shai
It's in the being asked, but it's not your soul.
00:52:30:17 - 00:52:34:03
Shai
And right. But but I'm not so quick to God. This is just like.
00:52:34:03 - 00:52:36:03
Shai
Some passing cold that you.
00:52:36:03 - 00:52:37:16
Shai
Have. Yeah. You know. No, no.
00:52:37:16 - 00:52:44:15
Shai
This actually just like you could be a baseball player or you could be an artist. You could be an addict, you know, from one.
00:52:44:15 - 00:53:03:12
Leslie
Perspective. Absolutely. And is there perhaps, some value or benefit in, in identifying that way per se, because it enables you, you know, it's kind of like you can't solve the problem. You're not acknowledging this happening. So if you if you can adopt the identity, you can actually work to resolve it even at the level of your identity.
00:53:03:13 - 00:53:20:12
Shai
Exactly right. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Now I get that's personal. Each person gets to choose how they, you know what, what resonates with them. So I'm not fascist about it. But as a whole, I wouldn't say society should just get rid of that idea, because I do think it's deep at the level of self-concept and identity. Yeah, but even deeper than that, actually, in some ways.
00:53:20:13 - 00:53:35:01
Leslie
Just to kind of draws to a close here because I obviously could just I could talk to you for the rest of the day. But you did mention that there is this, this story, the why do I keep forgetting the impure?
00:53:35:03 - 00:53:36:03
Shai
Yeah.
00:53:36:05 - 00:53:39:04
Shai
Empiricism in philosophy means that which is experience through the sense.
00:53:39:04 - 00:53:43:15
Leslie
It's not that I can't remember. The word empirical is that you just keep it. You have this clever way of will.
00:53:43:17 - 00:53:47:13
Shai
The empirical miracle. I was a rapper, you know, like I was a hip hop. I guess that's.
00:53:47:13 - 00:53:59:20
Leslie
Why I can't like white white lady brain fog. I can't, I can't remember empirical miracle. But will you will you please tell us this story? Because I think it could be a fabulous way to wrap up this episode.
00:53:59:21 - 00:54:02:14
Shai
Sure. Okay.
00:54:02:16 - 00:54:05:20
Shai
So there's there's, a couple of chapters to it.
00:54:05:23 - 00:54:06:19
Leslie
Okay.
00:54:06:21 - 00:54:12:10
Shai
But the it started this was January 16th, 2004. So very.
00:54:12:10 - 00:54:13:22
Shai
Recently. Okay.
00:54:14:00 - 00:54:36:13
Shai
And in the morning I come into my office at Recovered Integrity and I have a prayer and meditation practice. I pray out of a Jewish Seder prayer book. And then I do a meditation that I borrowed from a friend of mine, I call it the, Jewel Tree of Life meditation. Yeah. And so I imagine all of my relatives of the people that I love and the people of my community, I put them as jewels in my tree.
00:54:36:15 - 00:54:38:16
Shai
And I pray for the their protection.
00:54:38:18 - 00:54:39:01
Shai
Yeah.
00:54:39:02 - 00:55:02:13
Shai
And love and peace and all the good stuff. So I do that most mornings and, I sort of set, you know, I have like 40 people, but now that people come into my consciousness or somebody just passed away and I pray for their spirit or, you know, this kind of thing, you know, this particular morning, my, my great grandparents came into my consciousness on my mother's side, and I always went to my grandparents, but I never included the next generation.
00:55:02:13 - 00:55:05:11
Shai
Not ever. Right. Because you have to stop somewhere you can't just keep.
00:55:05:11 - 00:55:06:20
Shai
Yeah. To go to go.
00:55:06:22 - 00:55:16:04
Shai
To the grandparents. But they came into my consciousness. The names were Ida, Simon, Harry. And these are my. And I knew them. They died when I was still very young.
00:55:16:08 - 00:55:17:23
Shai
Okay. So I included.
00:55:17:23 - 00:55:26:21
Shai
Them in my prayer. Then I went to work that I had an internal family systems therapy session for myself on zoom in my office. Oh.
00:55:26:23 - 00:55:28:02
Shai
Okay.
00:55:28:04 - 00:55:31:12
Shai
Sitting in front of my computer, I have this therapist named Ted.
00:55:31:14 - 00:55:34:23
Shai
And I'm working on.
00:55:35:00 - 00:55:36:03
Shai
My fear of death.
00:55:36:05 - 00:55:36:18
Shai
00:55:36:20 - 00:55:50:01
Shai
When I was 10 or 11 years old, I was sitting on the couch watching TV, and I realized I. And everybody was going to die. It was a commercial, I think, probably for pharmaceuticals. And I saw two old people that I had that thought, oh, they're going to die.
00:55:50:03 - 00:55:50:16
Shai
Yeah.
00:55:50:18 - 00:55:59:09
Shai
And whatever little developmental transition I was at, I went to die. And nobody ever talked to me about death. I'd ever thought about it. And I went, oh, they are going to die.
00:55:59:11 - 00:56:01:11
Shai
Oh, the Bible die. My parents are gonna die.
00:56:01:14 - 00:56:13:16
Shai
Everybody's going to die, and nobody could do anything about it. I'm giving you the narrative. The reality was the abyss. And I had a panic attack, and I didn't know what a panic attack was. And I didn't tell anybody for a long time.
00:56:13:18 - 00:56:14:22
Shai
I was by myself.
00:56:15:00 - 00:56:15:18
Shai
I think it traumatized.
00:56:15:18 - 00:56:16:10
Shai
Me.
00:56:16:12 - 00:56:20:13
Shai
Because death was was my. It was nothing was the no thing, which just terrified me.
00:56:20:13 - 00:56:21:03
Shai
Yeah.
00:56:21:05 - 00:56:25:19
Shai
At that age, because I didn't have control. And, so I was working on.
00:56:25:21 - 00:56:27:09
Shai
The, the part.
00:56:27:11 - 00:56:29:11
Shai
The young part of me that got traumatized to the.
00:56:29:13 - 00:56:31:08
Shai
So I was working with.
00:56:31:10 - 00:56:32:19
Shai
A protector part.
00:56:32:21 - 00:56:33:07
Shai
00:56:34:01 - 00:56:50:04
Shai
And all of a sudden the protector part steps aside. I have my eyes closed and I'm working in my imagination. And this giant wolf shows up in my field of vision, which is not a normative experience for me. I don't dream about wolves. I'm not obsessed with wolves. And I don't usually have that vivid agitation.
00:56:50:06 - 00:56:52:00
Shai
But it's a wolf's head.
00:56:52:01 - 00:57:03:10
Shai
It's about this big. It's right in front of me, in my imagination, and it's very clear. And the wolf leans forward and puts its nose on my face, and I crack.
00:57:03:12 - 00:57:05:13
Shai
And I started bawling.
00:57:05:15 - 00:57:08:11
Shai
For like, 20 minutes. And I don't really cry that much.
00:57:08:13 - 00:57:10:23
Shai
I don't really care that much in therapy.
00:57:11:01 - 00:57:28:15
Shai
And all I kept saying was, I've never felt love like this. I've never felt loved like this 120%. I've never been loved like this. I mean, I just kept saying it over and over again. And the therapist was out there. I witnessed it and the the session was over. At the time, I was studying James Hilbert.
00:57:28:17 - 00:57:30:17
Shai
Okay. He had,
00:57:30:19 - 00:57:43:04
Shai
The, the way back to my day and I had an appointment, to go to the treatment program. It's called Beit Tissue. It was a Jewish treatment program that I got sober at, and I was the assistant rabbi at for marketing.
00:57:43:06 - 00:57:45:23
Shai
I had a treatment program. I'd never been. I'd been there two years.
00:57:45:23 - 00:58:01:15
Shai
I didn't really go back that much, but it was a holy place for me, and I didn't want to go because I hate marketing. So I go to this marketing meeting and in the middle of it of like this very odd statement because of this thing that happened three hours before, but all of a sudden I'm like, I got to go look at the Torah, which is the sacred text of the Jewish people.
00:58:01:20 - 00:58:13:06
Shai
And there's a congregation at an arc, at a kind of a whole thing over there. And I looked at my friend Adam, who's there, and I said, can I go look at the Torah? And I don't know why I said that. I'm not a Torah fixated person. I don't know what was happening, but I was drawn towards it.
00:58:13:06 - 00:58:28:00
Shai
It was just acting. So I go walk into the sanctuary, but there's a group going on, and I don't want to interrupt the group because I was a special person there. They would have interrupted the group to pull out the trance like, that's too much and don't worry about it. And I'm standing over the quarter with Adam at the sanctuary.
00:58:28:02 - 00:58:30:18
Shai
And there's these things called yard sites. They're these.
00:58:30:18 - 00:58:31:12
Shai
00:58:31:14 - 00:58:37:11
Shai
It's a tradition that you. It's mystical. It gets into stuff that you light a candle.
00:58:37:13 - 00:58:37:16
Shai
At.
00:58:37:17 - 00:58:54:07
Shai
The anniversary of a loved one's death. You say a certain prayer, but they don't like candles anymore in temple. So now they have these little brass plaques with these little lights that you turn on the anniversary of somebody's death. Okay, so I'm standing there, 500 plaques on the wall, and I'm looking at the group and we're just talking.
00:58:54:07 - 00:59:10:15
Shai
And I know that I have some relatives of the wall, and I'm looking, you know, probably like 8 or 9 relative to the wall, because I was there forever. And I saw, Eitan Seibert and they were both lit up. But I was like, let it die the same week. Like, why are they both lit up? This is really weird.
00:59:10:17 - 00:59:16:01
Shai
And I look at the dates and I go to Adam McGuire, my great grandparents yard sites on like that.
00:59:16:03 - 00:59:19:00
Shai
But what's going on? He's like, I don't know.
00:59:19:00 - 00:59:30:16
Shai
And I was like, oh, whatever. You know, I don't even think about it. I didn't even think about it. They were about to walk out. I looked down and there was Harry, Indiana, and they were both lit up. I have a picture of my foot.
00:59:30:18 - 00:59:35:04
Shai
And I said, they say we could. I went down, they go to and I said, why are.
00:59:35:04 - 00:59:36:04
Shai
All four.
00:59:36:04 - 00:59:39:03
Shai
Of my great grandparents yard sites lit up on that.
00:59:39:03 - 00:59:40:00
Shai
Wall?
00:59:40:01 - 00:59:42:00
Shai
And he goes, I have no idea. And I'm like, you know.
00:59:42:05 - 00:59:43:01
Shai
I'm a.
00:59:43:01 - 00:59:45:17
Shai
Cognitively suspicious person. And I, I said, Is Susan.
00:59:45:17 - 00:59:54:14
Shai
Still running this? She's still charged. This was it. Yes. I go I know she didn't do it, you know, but I go to Susan. I'd like to do fiddle with Mike. She's was like no.
00:59:54:16 - 01:00:04:12
Shai
Then of course it dawns on me, oh my God. Like, wait a minute. I included them in my meditation this morning. Then I recognized, wait a bit. I was working on my fear of.
01:00:04:12 - 01:00:06:03
Shai
Death.
01:00:06:05 - 01:00:07:17
Shai
In that IFC session.
01:00:07:20 - 01:00:10:19
Shai
01:00:10:21 - 01:00:14:09
Shai
Then I realized that Wolf was not a part.
01:00:14:11 - 01:00:14:23
Shai
You know.
01:00:15:00 - 01:00:41:13
Shai
Life's worth that. Go that a guide I was studying David's James Hilbert. David's guides, and how guides and messengers work in the world at that period of time. This was January 16th, 2024. I got sober at that place January 19th, 2003, 21 years before that week, 21 year before I was 42. At that time, it was the halfway point of my life.
01:00:41:15 - 01:00:42:14
Shai
And it was one of the only.
01:00:42:14 - 01:00:52:04
Shai
Times that my sobriety was going to be the halfway point of my life, right? 21 years sober, 42 years old that week in that place where I got cleaned, where I was the rabbi in a.
01:00:52:04 - 01:00:53:06
Shai
Temple.
01:00:53:08 - 01:00:54:19
Shai
That was happening. Okay.
01:00:55:00 - 01:00:55:18
Shai
Yeah. So what?
01:00:55:19 - 01:00:59:06
Shai
What the hell is going on? The only thing I couldn't figure out.
01:00:59:07 - 01:01:04:02
Shai
Was, why was it January 16th and not January.
01:01:04:04 - 01:01:23:17
Shai
19th, which is my actual sobriety day, which is that Friday? This is a Wednesday. And for a month, I couldn't figure it out. I knew it was a miracle, but I couldn't figure out why I was on that date. And then I realized, whatever I tell by sobriety story, I tell the truth. And the truth is, I got pulled over three days in a row before I got arrested and then went to rehab to get out of trouble three days in a row.
01:01:23:19 - 01:01:43:10
Shai
And I always say, you know, the LAPD was by Escobar or by Guy. There's actually another little piece to the story. But the first day that I got pulled over, the first intervention where I was. Ward, that's what I call it, I, I actually always get two warnings before this. Something happens. You get two words, right? The first day was January 16th, 2003.
01:01:43:12 - 01:01:44:06
Shai
What he was years.
01:01:44:06 - 01:01:49:04
Shai
To the day. It's the first time a messenger came in. Ward behavior on the wrong path. This is going to go bad for you.
01:01:49:07 - 01:01:50:11
Shai
Wow.
01:01:50:13 - 01:02:00:00
Shai
That's my empirical miracle story. I've analyze it 100, which, you know, hundred ways I've written 50 pages on it to try to make sense of how all of that could happen.
01:02:00:00 - 01:02:01:23
Shai
Yeah, but there's only one.
01:02:02:00 - 01:02:04:06
Shai
Way I could make sense of it, which is that it's an empirical miracle.
01:02:04:06 - 01:02:19:06
Leslie
I love it, I just will say that I have stories like that, so I believe it, I got it, I one question that I have is, do you have any theories about how the, the kind of candles came to be lit in the sense that.
01:02:19:08 - 01:02:21:13
Shai
Yeah, you know, it was interesting for me.
01:02:21:15 - 01:02:22:13
Shai
It was completely.
01:02:22:13 - 01:02:23:00
Shai
Irrelevant.
01:02:23:06 - 01:02:24:11
Shai
Okay. Like my.
01:02:24:11 - 01:02:28:02
Shai
Very logical self says some resident fiddled with the.
01:02:28:04 - 01:02:28:16
Shai
Right.
01:02:28:16 - 01:02:30:19
Shai
That doesn't explain anything exactly.
01:02:30:19 - 01:02:32:10
Shai
Right. Like that does explain.
01:02:32:10 - 01:02:34:06
Shai
Why those for what I have another.
01:02:34:06 - 01:02:41:06
Leslie
And why the person may feel may have felt strangely compelled to do that, sort of for reasons that maybe they didn't understand.
01:02:41:07 - 01:02:41:18
Shai
The book that.
01:02:41:18 - 01:02:46:06
Shai
I read about this kind of thing says, actually, that spirits communicate through the field through.
01:02:46:06 - 01:02:46:14
Shai
Electrical.
01:02:46:16 - 01:02:49:15
Leslie
Well, that actually was part of where I was going to go with.
01:02:49:17 - 01:02:52:19
Shai
Yeah. For me, it I don't know. Right.
01:02:52:19 - 01:02:57:17
Shai
Like, ultimately, I don't know. But I know what it that day felt like.
01:02:57:17 - 01:02:58:20
Shai
I mean, I know what the experience.
01:02:58:20 - 01:03:01:12
Shai
Of that day was. I mean, I experienced that day was life changing.
01:03:01:13 - 01:03:01:23
Shai
Yeah.
01:03:02:03 - 01:03:04:19
Shai
That completely, completely life changing. I went.
01:03:04:20 - 01:03:05:21
Shai
Oh, wow.
01:03:05:21 - 01:03:18:08
Shai
Because even if a resident fiddled with it, you still had the IFS experience. You still had the fact that I included them on that day, and I had not set foot in that place in two years, mean I was there that day.
01:03:18:10 - 01:03:37:19
Leslie
So I so here you I think one of the reasons why the thing with the lights is interesting to me is because one of the things that I track and notice in my own life and experience is the ways in which people can feel compelled to do things that they don't logically understand in the moment because they're compelled by something that we don't understand.
01:03:37:19 - 01:03:40:22
Leslie
Absolutely. So it's like, even if somebody.
01:03:41:00 - 01:03:41:12
Shai
Could or.
01:03:41:14 - 01:03:54:17
Leslie
Could have been the janitor, for Pete's sake, is like, well, you know, like somebody feels compelled to I'm going to test this light and make sure it works. And they get distracted and they walk away, and then it's enough for you to have, you know, a mystical experience in order.
01:03:54:17 - 01:04:01:12
Shai
Right? I'm compelled to do something by forces and patterns that are invisible to me at the moment. But maybe I see over time.
01:04:01:14 - 01:04:01:19
Shai
I.
01:04:01:19 - 01:04:05:02
Shai
Do this actually comes from psychedelic work. I think we will discover.
01:04:05:02 - 01:04:05:10
Leslie
Yeah.
01:04:05:16 - 01:04:06:21
Shai
That
01:04:06:23 - 01:04:11:23
Shai
Scientifically consciousness resides, not that this is what consciousness.
01:04:11:23 - 01:04:12:21
Shai
Is.
01:04:12:23 - 01:04:24:14
Shai
But I think as we have a deeper, deeper understanding of the fields that are operating in the bioelectric, body, I do think consciousness resides in the electrical fields.
01:04:24:16 - 01:04:25:22
Shai
Of our.
01:04:26:00 - 01:04:31:15
Shai
Of our body. So I do have that as a theory. I do think that will be discovered at some point. But, you know, I get who.
01:04:31:15 - 01:04:53:13
Leslie
Knows, I, I certainly can get on board with that. I, so what I will say for now is that in the interest of time, I would like to draw this, episode to a close just because I'm not yet, like Joe Rogan. Levels of three hour long conversations. But I do have, you know, my own version of stories like that.
01:04:53:15 - 01:05:11:03
Leslie
And we're about to film a short bonus segment, so, you know, if you're interested, we could talk more about that there. But for today, I just want to, you know, thank you for doing this with me. Is there anything that I haven't asked you or anything that you want people to know before we wrap up?
01:05:11:05 - 01:05:13:16
Shai
I think it'll be great. I totally cool things.
01:05:13:21 - 01:05:34:18
Leslie
Thank you so much for doing this with me. You've been watching or listening to The Nature of Nurture with me. Doctor Leslie Carr, and I want to thank you for joining us. You can find Shai at Recovery integrity.com and Antidote lab.com. Those links are in the show notes. And you can find me at the Nature of nurture.com. Many thanks to Shai for having this conversation with me.
01:05:34:18 - 01:05:52:15
Leslie
This episode was produced by me and Bri Corey. Thanks to Bri, Rick, Barry O'Dell, and everyone at SLAPP Studios, LA for helping to make my teenage dreams come true. If you found this conversation valuable, please let me know by leaving a review or rating, or by sharing the episode with at least one person who you think might enjoy it, too.
01:05:52:17 - 01:06:00:18
Leslie
You can also like or subscribe on YouTube or in any podcast app that you can get your hands on. Thank you again for tuning in. I'll see you next time.